6 ms·

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about ho

by Annatar 10y ago

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the logistics squared away! It's such a great way to work, I'm a big fan of this work methodology, because it is oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest, be those profits with interest financial or intellectual.

abduhl 10y ago
This is incredibly disrespectful to the professionals in other parts of the developed world who do infrastructure or construction related work. Every mega project (and most mid sized projects) invests significant money and time in planning and design and also has defined work flows/design processes. I'd be interested to see any breakdown of costs or schedule that show "planning" as being 50% of the the work.
- swombat 10y ago
  It seems a bit harsh to me to call this "incredibly disrespectful". I doubt that "incredible disrespect" was intended, nor is it inherent to the statement. What I think you mean is that the grandparent comment strikes you personally as not recognising the efforts of other engineers around the world, and you wish it did. I think that would be a less incendiary and aggressive way to get your point across, and, in most places, more likely to get a useful response.
  - abduhl 10y ago
    Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and demonstrably wrong. As someone who works in the tunneling industry I take personal offense to the implication that we (Americans, British, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, everyone not Swiss) don't "invest the time up-front in planning and thinking" before we "set the machinery in motion" and that we have a work methodology that isn't "oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest".
    - mistermann 10y ago
      HN is not a safe space. Disagree fine, but please don't try to outlaw speech because it's "disrespectful".
      - abduhl 10y ago
        I completely agree, HN is not a safe space. That is why I feel justified in blatantly calling out a comment I see as disrespectful. I didn't try to "outlaw" his comment - I upvoted the comment, as I upvote any comment I feel encourages or needs discussion.
        Annatar 10y ago
        > I upvoted the comment, as I upvote any comment I feel encourages or needs discussion. And for that kind of thinking alone, I upvote this comment of yours. Kudos and respect to you.
        reitanqild 10y ago
        I too upvoted this. Your other posts I didn't touch, either because I don't feel qualified to judge them or because I didn't agree. As others I found you somewhat incendiary but I am still surprised by the massive downvoting you seem to have experienced :-/
      - andrepd 10y ago
        Don't try to outlaw speech because it's disrespectful, and don't try to outlaw dissent because it's critical of disrespectfulness. Goes both ways.
    - otterley 10y ago
      The opinion being raised here is that the overall system the Swiss are using provides better results than those others are using. It's not necessarily that others don't put forth effort (despite the language), but that the Swiss yield the kind of results that others don't. Most people aren't judged by effort. They're judged by results. Another way of putting it: the proof of the engineering is in the working.
- Jgrubb 10y ago
  By praising something you're implicitly insulting everything else?
  - Annatar 10y ago
    I guess someone, somewhere, somehow, could be insulted (people, what can one do?) For example, any time in my decades of work experience I've had anything to do with the English, it was just pressure, pressure, pressure, do it quick, quick, quick! It needs done yesterday. What do we have to do to get this done already!?! PANIC oh my if this isn't done IMMEDIATELY the world will end!!! Implied threats. Passive-aggressive tactic. Blustering. Bluffing. But never any plan, never any specification, never anything except maybe a lonely Powerpoint presentation promising castles in the sky. Process? No process, that takes too long. And if there anything resembling a process, it's never formally documented, never enforced, and as soon as the next crisis breaks out, purposely disregarded. "Capability maturity model? Yeah, no, we obviously have no time for that..." It's been both frustrating and fascinating watching it all these years: always panic, always guerilla style work mode, always no plan whatsoever, always pandemonium, always chaos. Completely the opposite of the Swiss or the Japanese. Different companies, different people, but with the English always the same modus operandi. And then they say that stereotypes are bad and not true at all. I guess at least I appreciate that they are consistent in being chaotic and disorganized (;-))
  - geff82 10y ago
    People are equal, cultures are not.
- Annatar 10y ago
  If you are referring to my comment, I didn't mean just construction, I mean this is how the Swiss work in general. They always plan ahead and think long term in pretty much everything they undertake. It's their mentality, and I've learned to respect it and cherish it, a lot.
CaptainZapp 10y ago
I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that is the airport Berlin Brandenburg. Such projects usually require popular support via referendum in Switzerland. That means that if it is voted through this implies that the necessary capital investments are spoken for and that the project is legitimized via public support. This also means that if the government changes they can't just massage budget positions and siphon funds of such projects for political expedience, or other reasons. Legitimacy also avoids public resistance against the projects as it happened in Stuttgart and which almost killed the project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21#Debate_and_opposition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21#Debate_and_opposi...). That's not to say that all big projects in Switzerland work like a charm. But political legimacy and honest budgeting that comes with it seem major factors that such projects are succesful more often than not.
- Annatar 10y ago
  > I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: > Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. Yes, that helps them, a lot. However, that is effect. The root cause of political legitimacy is deeply ingrained in their culture, and it is compromise and consensus seeking, even when divided on an issue. That was a very humbling and instructive experience.
- SilasX 10y ago
  They both still do rail a lot cheaper, faster, and better than the US :-/
- soperj 10y ago
  It's interesting because I feel like 20 years ago that Germany was in the same vein as the swiss, things were completed on time and on budget, always. I don't know what's changed.
legulere 10y ago
Even in Switzerland it sometimes goes wrong. One interesting example is the bridge in Laufenburg. Construction was started on both the German and the Swiss side. In the end the sides didn't match up (Number 7 on http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27509559 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27509559). The German Wikipedia says Swiss engineers were at fault (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochrheinbrücke#Konstruktionsfehler https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochrheinbrücke#Konstruktionsf...)

by Annatar 10y ago

abduhl 10y ago

This is incredibly disrespectful to the professionals in other parts of the developed world who do infrastructure or construction related work. Every mega project (and most mid sized projects) invests significant money and time in planning and design and also has defined work flows/design processes. I'd be interested to see any breakdown of costs or schedule that show "planning" as being 50% of the the work.

swombat 10y ago
It seems a bit harsh to me to call this "incredibly disrespectful". I doubt that "incredible disrespect" was intended, nor is it inherent to the statement. What I think you mean is that the grandparent comment strikes you personally as not recognising the efforts of other engineers around the world, and you wish it did. I think that would be a less incendiary and aggressive way to get your point across, and, in most places, more likely to get a useful response.
- abduhl 10y ago
  Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and demonstrably wrong. As someone who works in the tunneling industry I take personal offense to the implication that we (Americans, British, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, everyone not Swiss) don't "invest the time up-front in planning and thinking" before we "set the machinery in motion" and that we have a work methodology that isn't "oriented towards reaping long term profits with interest".
  - mistermann 10y ago
    HN is not a safe space. Disagree fine, but please don't try to outlaw speech because it's "disrespectful".
    - abduhl 10y ago
      I completely agree, HN is not a safe space. That is why I feel justified in blatantly calling out a comment I see as disrespectful. I didn't try to "outlaw" his comment - I upvoted the comment, as I upvote any comment I feel encourages or needs discussion.
      - Annatar 10y ago
        > I upvoted the comment, as I upvote any comment I feel encourages or needs discussion. And for that kind of thinking alone, I upvote this comment of yours. Kudos and respect to you.
      - reitanqild 10y ago
        I too upvoted this. Your other posts I didn't touch, either because I don't feel qualified to judge them or because I didn't agree. As others I found you somewhat incendiary but I am still surprised by the massive downvoting you seem to have experienced :-/
    - andrepd 10y ago
      Don't try to outlaw speech because it's disrespectful, and don't try to outlaw dissent because it's critical of disrespectfulness. Goes both ways.
  - otterley 10y ago
    The opinion being raised here is that the overall system the Swiss are using provides better results than those others are using. It's not necessarily that others don't put forth effort (despite the language), but that the Swiss yield the kind of results that others don't. Most people aren't judged by effort. They're judged by results. Another way of putting it: the proof of the engineering is in the working.
Jgrubb 10y ago
By praising something you're implicitly insulting everything else?
- Annatar 10y ago
  I guess someone, somewhere, somehow, could be insulted (people, what can one do?) For example, any time in my decades of work experience I've had anything to do with the English, it was just pressure, pressure, pressure, do it quick, quick, quick! It needs done yesterday. What do we have to do to get this done already!?! PANIC oh my if this isn't done IMMEDIATELY the world will end!!! Implied threats. Passive-aggressive tactic. Blustering. Bluffing. But never any plan, never any specification, never anything except maybe a lonely Powerpoint presentation promising castles in the sky. Process? No process, that takes too long. And if there anything resembling a process, it's never formally documented, never enforced, and as soon as the next crisis breaks out, purposely disregarded. "Capability maturity model? Yeah, no, we obviously have no time for that..." It's been both frustrating and fascinating watching it all these years: always panic, always guerilla style work mode, always no plan whatsoever, always pandemonium, always chaos. Completely the opposite of the Swiss or the Japanese. Different companies, different people, but with the English always the same modus operandi. And then they say that stereotypes are bad and not true at all. I guess at least I appreciate that they are consistent in being chaotic and disorganized (;-))
- geff82 10y ago
  People are equal, cultures are not.
Annatar 10y ago
If you are referring to my comment, I didn't mean just construction, I mean this is how the Swiss work in general. They always plan ahead and think long term in pretty much everything they undertake. It's their mentality, and I've learned to respect it and cherish it, a lot.

CaptainZapp 10y ago

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that is the airport Berlin Brandenburg. Such projects usually require popular support via referendum in Switzerland. That means that if it is voted through this implies that the necessary capital investments are spoken for and that the project is legitimized via public support. This also means that if the government changes they can't just massage budget positions and siphon funds of such projects for political expedience, or other reasons. Legitimacy also avoids public resistance against the projects as it happened in Stuttgart and which almost killed the project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21#Debate_and_opposition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21#Debate_and_opposi...). That's not to say that all big projects in Switzerland work like a charm. But political legimacy and honest budgeting that comes with it seem major factors that such projects are succesful more often than not.

Annatar 10y ago
> I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: > Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. Yes, that helps them, a lot. However, that is effect. The root cause of political legitimacy is deeply ingrained in their culture, and it is compromise and consensus seeking, even when divided on an issue. That was a very humbling and instructive experience.
SilasX 10y ago
They both still do rail a lot cheaper, faster, and better than the US :-/
soperj 10y ago
It's interesting because I feel like 20 years ago that Germany was in the same vein as the swiss, things were completed on time and on budget, always. I don't know what's changed.

legulere 10y ago

Even in Switzerland it sometimes goes wrong. One interesting example is the bridge in Laufenburg. Construction was started on both the German and the Swiss side. In the end the sides didn't match up (Number 7 on http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27509559 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27509559). The German Wikipedia says Swiss engineers were at fault (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochrheinbrücke#Konstruktionsfehler https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochrheinbrücke#Konstruktionsf...)