4 ms·

I would be for that. "Reasonableness" is something recent courts and I (and many here) really disagree on.

darawk 10y ago
Would you allow firefighters to enter a burning building without a warrant? What about entering a home to stop an in-progress murder? The argument that a court should be required in all circumstances is pretty silly.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > Would you allow firefighters to enter a burning building without a warrant? Firefighters enter buildings for public safety, not to search for contraband or evidence. > What about entering a home to stop an in-progress murder? That is only allowed in rare exigent circumstances[1] that involve the imminent danger. While the plain view doctrine can apply in such a situation, exigent circumstances do not allow for searching in places that normally require a warrant. > The argument that a court should be required in all circumstances is pretty silly. Requiring a warrant in all circumstances where the government wants to search and/or seize evidence is a cornerstone of a free society. Warrants are a trivial barrier if there is a legitimate investigation with any evidence at all. The "probable cause" requirement is a very low barrier. Some people complain that warrants are "rubber stamped" too easily, but getting the "stamp of approval" is the goal. It's easy to start skipping[3] simple requirements like "probable cause", so a warrant acts as a check and audit trail that at least some minimal procedure was followed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_view_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_view_doctrine [3] http://www.rapp.org/archives/2015/12/normalization-of-deviance/ http://www.rapp.org/archives/2015/12/normalization-of-devian...
  - darawk 10y ago
    I'm aware of all of these things. But as your second citation points out, an officer legally entering a building during an exigent circumstance may confiscate and/or use as evidence anything found in 'plain view'. > Requiring a warrant in all circumstances where the government wants to search and/or seize evidence is a cornerstone of a free society. Warrants are a trivial barrier if there is a legitimate investigation with any evidence at all. The "probable cause" requirement is a very low barrier. We just went over a variety of obvious exceptions to the warrant requirement. You can argue that these are exceptional cases to be sure, but it is certainly not true that a warrant is always required nor should it be (as the comment I was responding to said). A very slightly less clear-cut example is BAC, as the parent commenter mentioned. It is completely impractical to get a warrant in DUI cases. It would either be a completely meaningless waste of everyone's time, or it'd literally be a rubber stamp, where a cop calls up and receives the warrant with zero interaction or consideration from the judge. And I don't know about you, but i'd rather not open the door to true rubber-stamping of warrants. Because once you start doing that, it's only a matter of time until they start doing it with things that aren't so trivial.
    - HappyTypist 10y ago
      The courts also recognise that Boolean oracles do not impede privacy. It's how drug sniffing dogs are justified.
    - Avshalom 10y ago
      I'm pretty sure that if a firefighter breaks into my house to put out a fire the cops still have to have had a warrant for anything found in the house to be admissible in court.
      - darawk 10y ago
        Not so if there is evidence of a crime in 'plain view'.
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago
  A burning building is both an immediate threat to folks inside the building, and can be a threat to life to folks outside the building. That would be silly, however there should be accountability paperwork outside. In addition, many fires are reported by alarm systems or folks calling for emergency help - they asked for such a thing. There should be accountability paperwork, signed off by a court, before they start investigating - and the investigator should be a trained public official, not an insurance investigator. In home murder? Assuming they got an emergency call or the cop happened to hear screaming, etc - yes, they should go in. Once folks are safe, however, everything else should require a warrant and paperwork should be filled out regardless for accountability reasons. The whole point with the courts being involved is that even if it is after the incident, it brings a certain amount of accountability. We can change things so that different folks rotate the resopnsibility, include folks like prosecutors and public defenders and other private lawyers, and some things will basically be rubber-stamped (like investigating a fire or after they stopped the murder in progress). In some cases, it is better to pass a law stating that a specific thing is allowed without a warrant, however, so that the courts don't have to get involved. A breathalyzer, for example, isn't invasive and good for public safety. Drawing blood should require a warrant and a trained professional in a clean environment, however. That could change if we have tests that are the equivalent of a finger prick for blood sugar as the risks are lower - we just aren't there yet.

Would you allow firefighters to enter a burning building without a warrant? What about entering a home to stop an in-progress murder? The argument that a court should be required in all circumstances is pretty silly.

pdkl95 10y ago
> Would you allow firefighters to enter a burning building without a warrant? Firefighters enter buildings for public safety, not to search for contraband or evidence. > What about entering a home to stop an in-progress murder? That is only allowed in rare exigent circumstances[1] that involve the imminent danger. While the plain view doctrine can apply in such a situation, exigent circumstances do not allow for searching in places that normally require a warrant. > The argument that a court should be required in all circumstances is pretty silly. Requiring a warrant in all circumstances where the government wants to search and/or seize evidence is a cornerstone of a free society. Warrants are a trivial barrier if there is a legitimate investigation with any evidence at all. The "probable cause" requirement is a very low barrier. Some people complain that warrants are "rubber stamped" too easily, but getting the "stamp of approval" is the goal. It's easy to start skipping[3] simple requirements like "probable cause", so a warrant acts as a check and audit trail that at least some minimal procedure was followed. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_view_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_view_doctrine [3] http://www.rapp.org/archives/2015/12/normalization-of-deviance/ http://www.rapp.org/archives/2015/12/normalization-of-devian...
- darawk 10y ago
  I'm aware of all of these things. But as your second citation points out, an officer legally entering a building during an exigent circumstance may confiscate and/or use as evidence anything found in 'plain view'. > Requiring a warrant in all circumstances where the government wants to search and/or seize evidence is a cornerstone of a free society. Warrants are a trivial barrier if there is a legitimate investigation with any evidence at all. The "probable cause" requirement is a very low barrier. We just went over a variety of obvious exceptions to the warrant requirement. You can argue that these are exceptional cases to be sure, but it is certainly not true that a warrant is always required nor should it be (as the comment I was responding to said). A very slightly less clear-cut example is BAC, as the parent commenter mentioned. It is completely impractical to get a warrant in DUI cases. It would either be a completely meaningless waste of everyone's time, or it'd literally be a rubber stamp, where a cop calls up and receives the warrant with zero interaction or consideration from the judge. And I don't know about you, but i'd rather not open the door to true rubber-stamping of warrants. Because once you start doing that, it's only a matter of time until they start doing it with things that aren't so trivial.
  - HappyTypist 10y ago
    The courts also recognise that Boolean oracles do not impede privacy. It's how drug sniffing dogs are justified.
  - Avshalom 10y ago
    I'm pretty sure that if a firefighter breaks into my house to put out a fire the cops still have to have had a warrant for anything found in the house to be admissible in court.
    - darawk 10y ago
      Not so if there is evidence of a crime in 'plain view'.
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
A burning building is both an immediate threat to folks inside the building, and can be a threat to life to folks outside the building. That would be silly, however there should be accountability paperwork outside. In addition, many fires are reported by alarm systems or folks calling for emergency help - they asked for such a thing. There should be accountability paperwork, signed off by a court, before they start investigating - and the investigator should be a trained public official, not an insurance investigator. In home murder? Assuming they got an emergency call or the cop happened to hear screaming, etc - yes, they should go in. Once folks are safe, however, everything else should require a warrant and paperwork should be filled out regardless for accountability reasons. The whole point with the courts being involved is that even if it is after the incident, it brings a certain amount of accountability. We can change things so that different folks rotate the resopnsibility, include folks like prosecutors and public defenders and other private lawyers, and some things will basically be rubber-stamped (like investigating a fire or after they stopped the murder in progress). In some cases, it is better to pass a law stating that a specific thing is allowed without a warrant, however, so that the courts don't have to get involved. A breathalyzer, for example, isn't invasive and good for public safety. Drawing blood should require a warrant and a trained professional in a clean environment, however. That could change if we have tests that are the equivalent of a finger prick for blood sugar as the risks are lower - we just aren't there yet.