6 ms·

Three words for interesting (relevant) google food: toilet paper USSR. State production does not guarantee a steady supply of essentials.

by danjayh 10y ago

thescriptkiddie 10y ago
The USSR suffered from mismanagement, poor treatment of workers, rampant corruption, a lack of natural resources, and crippling trade embargoes, and they nationalized virtually their entire economy. There are plenty of other examples of nationalizing critical industries going well, case in point Britain's NHS.
- danjayh 10y ago
  (copied from another comment that I posted this in originally by accident) You consider NHS to be an example of a well run nationalized system, and yet the NHS deals with chronic rationing [0] [1], has queues for many things (and actually lets you pay to jump place in line) [2]. I'd hardly call that efficient or well run - instead, I'd call it symptomatic of central planning. During the 90s and 00s I thought that perhaps China's simultaneous transition from poverty and shortage to (relative) wealth and abundance (which was driven by their transition from state control to capitalism) would have finally put this 'the state could eliminate shortages and give everybody everything' nonsense to rest, but it seems that people have very short memories indeed (or just weren't born yet when the major experiments in nationalization were underway). To give you a preview of the links, this quote is particularly poignant: "Rationing is nothing new, of course. When waiting lists stretched to many months and even years, treatment was often rationed simply by the patient dying before they reach the operating table." [0] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing-denying-patients-care-cash-crisis-survery-doctors http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/rationing-care-fact-of-life-nhs http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/ra... [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charges-patients-14-000-jump-queue-crucial-ops-Hospitals-letting-need-knee-hip-replacement-surgery-pay-skip-queue.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charge...
  - hackuser 10y ago
    Yet people in the UK love the NHS, afaict. I watched the debates on Scottish secession; both sides, Yes and No, were emphatic that if the vote went their way, citizens would retain what they called their "treasure", the NHS.
  - StanislavPetrov 10y ago
    Unfortunately it ends up being the lesser of two evils. Many people would rather have to wait for treatment rather then pay $10,000 a year for a policy and still be completely unable to get treatment because they can't afford the copay, since their policy doesn't kick in until after they shell out an additional $5,000, and even then only pays half.
  - Gupie 10y ago
    From [0], "Patients are being denied mental health care, new hips and knees, and drugs to boost their recovery from illnesses". Does this also happen in the US or does the market ensure that everyone get every medical treatment they need?
Broken_Hippo 10y ago
And neither does a market, regulated or not. You can generally find bad examples of such things. At least it is possibly to cut back your use of toilet paper without dire consequences so long as you have clean water. It might not be pretty or wanted for most of us, but it is possible while still keeping clean. Bidets might get more popular, if available, and others would learn from the folks that use cloth diapers and real washclothes on their babies. This situation isn't as easy to fix when you replace toilet paper with medication or health care. It isn't like one can simply make do if they are out of medicine.
- danjayh 10y ago
  EDIT: Disregard 'you consider the NHS...' - got your comment mixed up with somebody elses. The actual point is that nationalization tends to have mismanagement and shortages as an outcome, and private markets do not (at least not to the same extent). You consider NHS to be an example of a well run nationalized system, and yet the NHS deals with chronic rationing [0] [1], has queues for many things (and actually lets you pay to jump place in line) [2]. I'd hardly call that efficient or well run - instead, I'd call it symptomatic of central planning. W/ regard to people using bidets, cloth diapers, and washclothes - in a system with chronic shortages, people don't have those either. During the 90s and 00s I thought that perhaps China's simultaneous transition from poverty and shortage to (relative) wealth and abundance (which was driven by their transition from state control to capitalism) would have finally put this 'the state could eliminate shortages and give everybody everything' nonsense to rest, but it seems that people have very short memories indeed (or just weren't born yet when the major experiments in nationalization were underway). [0] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing-denying-patients-care-cash-crisis-survery-doctors http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/rationing-care-fact-of-life-nhs http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/ra... [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charges-patients-14-000-jump-queue-crucial-ops-Hospitals-letting-need-knee-hip-replacement-surgery-pay-skip-queue.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charge...
  - Broken_Hippo 10y ago

Three words for interesting (relevant) google food: toilet paper USSR. State production does not guarantee a steady supply of essentials.

by danjayh 10y ago

Three words for interesting (relevant) google food: toilet paper USSR. State production does not guarantee a steady supply of essentials.

thescriptkiddie 10y ago

The USSR suffered from mismanagement, poor treatment of workers, rampant corruption, a lack of natural resources, and crippling trade embargoes, and they nationalized virtually their entire economy. There are plenty of other examples of nationalizing critical industries going well, case in point Britain's NHS.

danjayh 10y ago
(copied from another comment that I posted this in originally by accident) You consider NHS to be an example of a well run nationalized system, and yet the NHS deals with chronic rationing [0] [1], has queues for many things (and actually lets you pay to jump place in line) [2]. I'd hardly call that efficient or well run - instead, I'd call it symptomatic of central planning. During the 90s and 00s I thought that perhaps China's simultaneous transition from poverty and shortage to (relative) wealth and abundance (which was driven by their transition from state control to capitalism) would have finally put this 'the state could eliminate shortages and give everybody everything' nonsense to rest, but it seems that people have very short memories indeed (or just weren't born yet when the major experiments in nationalization were underway). To give you a preview of the links, this quote is particularly poignant: "Rationing is nothing new, of course. When waiting lists stretched to many months and even years, treatment was often rationed simply by the patient dying before they reach the operating table." [0] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing-denying-patients-care-cash-crisis-survery-doctors http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/rationing-care-fact-of-life-nhs http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/ra... [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charges-patients-14-000-jump-queue-crucial-ops-Hospitals-letting-need-knee-hip-replacement-surgery-pay-skip-queue.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charge...
- hackuser 10y ago
  Yet people in the UK love the NHS, afaict. I watched the debates on Scottish secession; both sides, Yes and No, were emphatic that if the vote went their way, citizens would retain what they called their "treasure", the NHS.
- StanislavPetrov 10y ago
  Unfortunately it ends up being the lesser of two evils. Many people would rather have to wait for treatment rather then pay $10,000 a year for a policy and still be completely unable to get treatment because they can't afford the copay, since their policy doesn't kick in until after they shell out an additional $5,000, and even then only pays half.
- Gupie 10y ago
  From [0], "Patients are being denied mental health care, new hips and knees, and drugs to boost their recovery from illnesses". Does this also happen in the US or does the market ensure that everyone get every medical treatment they need?

Broken_Hippo 10y ago

And neither does a market, regulated or not. You can generally find bad examples of such things. At least it is possibly to cut back your use of toilet paper without dire consequences so long as you have clean water. It might not be pretty or wanted for most of us, but it is possible while still keeping clean. Bidets might get more popular, if available, and others would learn from the folks that use cloth diapers and real washclothes on their babies. This situation isn't as easy to fix when you replace toilet paper with medication or health care. It isn't like one can simply make do if they are out of medicine.

danjayh 10y ago
EDIT: Disregard 'you consider the NHS...' - got your comment mixed up with somebody elses. The actual point is that nationalization tends to have mismanagement and shortages as an outcome, and private markets do not (at least not to the same extent). You consider NHS to be an example of a well run nationalized system, and yet the NHS deals with chronic rationing [0] [1], has queues for many things (and actually lets you pay to jump place in line) [2]. I'd hardly call that efficient or well run - instead, I'd call it symptomatic of central planning. W/ regard to people using bidets, cloth diapers, and washclothes - in a system with chronic shortages, people don't have those either. During the 90s and 00s I thought that perhaps China's simultaneous transition from poverty and shortage to (relative) wealth and abundance (which was driven by their transition from state control to capitalism) would have finally put this 'the state could eliminate shortages and give everybody everything' nonsense to rest, but it seems that people have very short memories indeed (or just weren't born yet when the major experiments in nationalization were underway). [0] http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing-denying-patients-care-cash-crisis-survery-doctors http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/rationing-care-fact-of-life-nhs http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/apr/24/ra... [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charges-patients-14-000-jump-queue-crucial-ops-Hospitals-letting-need-knee-hip-replacement-surgery-pay-skip-queue.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3104106/NHS-charge...
- Broken_Hippo 10y ago