4 ms·

> I would like to see an opt-in program where you can receive food, in exchange for $X out of your BI. Doesn't this already exist? You can exchange $X for food

> I would like to see an opt-in program where you can receive food, in exchange for $X out of your BI. Doesn't this already exist? You can exchange $X for food at stores, restaurants, etc. Why make a program that just turns the government into a grocery store?

ncallaway 10y ago
The difference is that this comes out the BI before it is given to you as cash. $X is a fixed-price out of the BI, that provides a fixed amount of foodstuffs. That is, if my monthly BI payment is $800 I can opt to receive a monthly BI payment of $600 and also be guaranteed to receive enough basic foodstuffs to survive for the month. I would also set these up to draw off the next month's BI payment, effectively allowing you access to short-term credit for groceries. If we are in mid-june and I've run-out of money, I can start the government foods program immediately, taking the funding out of my July BI check. These services would be intended for people who are having a hard-time managing their finances in a responsible-way. Grocery stores neither help people manage their money or provide short-term credit solutions.
- RangerScience 10y ago
  That sounds like asking for trouble. Like payday loans - starts as a good idea that can help people, ends up as a system with the effect of luring people into massive dept.
  - ncallaway 10y ago
    Sure. The problem with a PayDay loan is that it replaces future capital with capital today. For the small percent of people who have serial problems managing their capital, giving them capital is the worst thing you can do. This causes people to get trapped in a cycle. The key difference here is you replace future-capital with the goods or services directly. It's much harder to turn food and/or rent back into capital, and then mismanage it.
    - RangerScience 10y ago
      I see what you're saying, although... Based on that explanation, I'd expect to see a much more diminished frequency / intensity of the PayDay loan issue, but... ...if Something Happens and you run out of cash this month, why would you expect to a) not have Something Happen next month or b) have enough surplus next month to repay the "loan"? Well, I guess you'd want to peg the BI at "average cost of living plus buffer", so that the person always has enough liquidity to cover, say, a standard deviation of Oh Shit over the course of N months. Or, keep safety nets as nets (rather than traps) so that Oh Shit, Something Happened events don't cause this issue. Hmmm.
- the_watcher 10y ago
  At what point do we stop? Current safety nets aren't enough, so let's try basic income, but some people will mismanage their money, so let's do their shopping for them.
  - ncallaway 10y ago
    The way I see it there will always be some percentage of people that mismanage whatever capital they have (be it earned or given), and have financial hardship that leads to a lack of food and housing. With current safety nets, we have perhaps 15% [1] of Americans that for whatever reason lack the capital to have an adequate supply of food. With Basic Income, perhaps we reduce that number down to 1%, but we still need to take care of that 1%. With the government services program that I suggested (and there are many other models, and I'd be happy to discuss other models), maybe you get that number down to 0.3%. Yet, as a country, we still need to take care of those people. Personally, when it comes to feeding and housing people, my answer to "At what point do we stop" is: Never. [1] 48.1 million Americans lived in Food Insecure Households (http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hunger/hunger-and-poverty/hunger-and-poverty-fact-sheet.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/); http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hu... 317.3 million Americans in 2014 (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2013/12/31/us-population-2014-317-million-and-71-billion-in-the-world http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2013/...) = 15.1%
- AnthonyMouse 10y ago
  > That is, if my monthly BI payment is $800 I can opt to receive a monthly BI payment of $600 and also be guaranteed to receive enough basic foodstuffs to survive for the month. This is not necessary. Just distribute the money weekly (or daily) and let people figure out what to spend it on. If they would rather buy cigarettes than food, let them. When they're hungry they'll buy food.

ncallaway 10y ago

The difference is that this comes out the BI before it is given to you as cash. $X is a fixed-price out of the BI, that provides a fixed amount of foodstuffs. That is, if my monthly BI payment is $800 I can opt to receive a monthly BI payment of $600 and also be guaranteed to receive enough basic foodstuffs to survive for the month. I would also set these up to draw off the next month's BI payment, effectively allowing you access to short-term credit for groceries. If we are in mid-june and I've run-out of money, I can start the government foods program immediately, taking the funding out of my July BI check. These services would be intended for people who are having a hard-time managing their finances in a responsible-way. Grocery stores neither help people manage their money or provide short-term credit solutions.

RangerScience 10y ago
That sounds like asking for trouble. Like payday loans - starts as a good idea that can help people, ends up as a system with the effect of luring people into massive dept.
- ncallaway 10y ago
  Sure. The problem with a PayDay loan is that it replaces future capital with capital today. For the small percent of people who have serial problems managing their capital, giving them capital is the worst thing you can do. This causes people to get trapped in a cycle. The key difference here is you replace future-capital with the goods or services directly. It's much harder to turn food and/or rent back into capital, and then mismanage it.
  - RangerScience 10y ago
    I see what you're saying, although... Based on that explanation, I'd expect to see a much more diminished frequency / intensity of the PayDay loan issue, but... ...if Something Happens and you run out of cash this month, why would you expect to a) not have Something Happen next month or b) have enough surplus next month to repay the "loan"? Well, I guess you'd want to peg the BI at "average cost of living plus buffer", so that the person always has enough liquidity to cover, say, a standard deviation of Oh Shit over the course of N months. Or, keep safety nets as nets (rather than traps) so that Oh Shit, Something Happened events don't cause this issue. Hmmm.
the_watcher 10y ago
At what point do we stop? Current safety nets aren't enough, so let's try basic income, but some people will mismanage their money, so let's do their shopping for them.
- ncallaway 10y ago
  The way I see it there will always be some percentage of people that mismanage whatever capital they have (be it earned or given), and have financial hardship that leads to a lack of food and housing. With current safety nets, we have perhaps 15% [1] of Americans that for whatever reason lack the capital to have an adequate supply of food. With Basic Income, perhaps we reduce that number down to 1%, but we still need to take care of that 1%. With the government services program that I suggested (and there are many other models, and I'd be happy to discuss other models), maybe you get that number down to 0.3%. Yet, as a country, we still need to take care of those people. Personally, when it comes to feeding and housing people, my answer to "At what point do we stop" is: Never. [1] 48.1 million Americans lived in Food Insecure Households (http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hunger/hunger-and-poverty/hunger-and-poverty-fact-sheet.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/); http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hu... 317.3 million Americans in 2014 (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2013/12/31/us-population-2014-317-million-and-71-billion-in-the-world http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2013/...) = 15.1%
AnthonyMouse 10y ago
> That is, if my monthly BI payment is $800 I can opt to receive a monthly BI payment of $600 and also be guaranteed to receive enough basic foodstuffs to survive for the month. This is not necessary. Just distribute the money weekly (or daily) and let people figure out what to spend it on. If they would rather buy cigarettes than food, let them. When they're hungry they'll buy food.