>>What you and Hume…don't understand is the reach of science, experience and empirical testing I'm familiar with Sam Harris' argument. We have measured levels

>>What you and Hume…don't understand is the reach of science, experience and empirical testing I'm familiar with Sam Harris' argument. We have measured levels of health, pain response, serotonin, dopamine, and various other yardsticks with new technology. Harris argues that assuming our goal is to maximize happiness and reduce pain, these technologies can help us track our progress. He's right. But this assumed suggested first principle of human empathy isn't novel. Hume in 1738 was very familiar with the concept of human empathy. It was not enough then to tell us how to act and never can be. >>I don't presume human healt to be an ultimate good, experience has shown that it is an ultimate good, or as ultimate as a goal can be. Being only a subjective human, your personal opinion about health, which is all this is, is not infallible and is validly rejected. >>I have not chosen a camp...ultimate objective morality to me is just as irrelevant as ultimate objective medicine. This is a real dichotomy, not a false dichotomy: moral statements refer to objective moral facts (Moral Realism) or they do not (Moral Nonrealism). You do not currently believe moral statements refer to objective moral facts, correct? That's one of the two camps. There is no neutral position, you have chosen. >>we have made incredible moral progress In your camp, Moral Nonrealism, morals (statements about what humans should do) don't refer to objective moral facts. Instead they are subjective whims and invented delusions we use to help us survive and thrive and to give us comfort. Just as one subjective moral opinion in America today cannot be objectively better than a differing subjective moral opinion in Brazil today, subjective opinions that differ across time also cannot be said to be better or worse than any other. Thus, while change occurs "progress" never does. >>one of the worst if not the worst as the christian god A common response to a proposed Upside-Down Kingdom, where the currently first will later be last. >>What you need is evidence but you have none. Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_realism