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Michigander here. AFAIK, you can't just turn your Bridge card into cash. How does one purchase lottery tickets and drugs with welfare payments? The one way I

Michigander here. AFAIK, you can't just turn your Bridge card into cash. How does one purchase lottery tickets and drugs with welfare payments? The one way I can think of is hanging out with the high-school kids outside the liquor store and saying "I'll go buy you X if you go buy me lottery tickets and alcohol/go to your dealer and get me an O"

phil21 10y ago
The market for trading benefits for cash/services/products is quite robust in communities where it is the norm to be on them. I think you would be quite surprised - it's a very well developed shadow economy that has pretty well known "rule of thumb" exchange rates, money changers, runners, etc. This will pop up in any market that offers non-cash items of value.
- phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
  I think I would be too, which is why I asked. Do you have any concrete examples of such a market? I mean, I put one right in my comment. How else do you do this sort of thing? EDIT: I'm not trying to call you out, I just want to know how these things are done. Being on HN, I've seen stolen credit card marketplaces and things like that. Do people put their welfare payments on something like that? Do you have resources like that?
  - ufmace 10y ago
    What would a concrete example look like to you? They don't do these things on the internet or with apps, it's all face-to-face and word of mouth. I wouldn't bet on there being any academic studies of it either. Likely all we'll ever have is personal anecdotes from people who have been involved in these communities and somehow ended up spending much more time on the internet than is the norm there.
    - phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
      Someone else pointed out googling "tide as currency", and that opened my eyes. It made me realize that people doing this are working with pointers, not values.
      - gertef 10y ago
        All currency is a "pointer", not "value". That's the purpose of currency.
  - diydsp 10y ago
    Try googling things like "food stamps black market"... It happens, but it's only about 1%. How much time and effort should we spend trying to eradicate that last 1% of fraud? [1] http://www.ktnv.com/news/busted-black-market-food-stamps http://www.ktnv.com/news/busted-black-market-food-stamps [2] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/19/food-stamp-black-market-rise/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/19/food-stamp-b... [3] http://thoughtfulwomen.org/2012/10/16/black-market-for-food-stamps-is-alive-and-well/ http://thoughtfulwomen.org/2012/10/16/black-market-for-food-... [4] http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/02/16/investigation-uncovers-people-selling-taxpayer-funded-food-stamps/ http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/02/16/investigation-unco... [5] http://articles.philly.com/1994-06-02/news/25833443_1_food-stamps-food-stamp-program-financial-exchange http://articles.philly.com/1994-06-02/news/25833443_1_food-s...
    - DrScump 10y ago
      Did you read #3? "sales of Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program vouchers brought in $858 million in cash in the 2009-2011 period" That's almost $300M/year just for SNAP benefits. $300M here, $300M there, and pretty soon, you're talking real money.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > on HN, I've seen stolen credit card marketplaces and things like that. Do people put their welfare payments on something like that? Sometimes, yes, people sell EBT cards online (a quick googling finds numerous reports of this being done on Craigslist and Facebook.) Othertimes, they convert benefits to concrete goods, which are then sold at below-market prices to convert into cash to by things that would not be allowed by the benefit program (or traded directly for other goods, with the seller of the other goods either using the traded goods or selling them for cash.)
    - phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
      Yep, I did some reading since my original post and came to the conclusion I'm just naive.
roel_v 10y ago
Google "tide as currency". It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
- phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
  Huh. Thanks, I think. Not because of you, but because of humanity.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Theft and onselling of stolen goods is enough to make you question humanity? You really are naïve.
    - phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
      Yeah, that's why I said so before you did. Thanks?
throwanem 10y ago
Here in Baltimore, the usual benefits fraud method involves small shop owners willing to claim false purchases to a given value, then disburse an equal value in cash partly to the benefits claimant and partly to themselves as a profit - so, yeah, you actually can just turn your SNAP card into cash, albeit at a sizable discount. No doubt the same is true of a Bridge card.
ams6110 10y ago
They can simply sell the card at a discount to what it's worth. The buyer can then use it to purchase goods that he needs and pocket the difference, or resell them at normal retail or more. It's a huge problem. http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2015/06/fraud_ring_that_turned_ebt_car.html http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2015/06/fraud_ri...

phil21 10y ago

The market for trading benefits for cash/services/products is quite robust in communities where it is the norm to be on them. I think you would be quite surprised - it's a very well developed shadow economy that has pretty well known "rule of thumb" exchange rates, money changers, runners, etc. This will pop up in any market that offers non-cash items of value.

phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
I think I would be too, which is why I asked. Do you have any concrete examples of such a market? I mean, I put one right in my comment. How else do you do this sort of thing? EDIT: I'm not trying to call you out, I just want to know how these things are done. Being on HN, I've seen stolen credit card marketplaces and things like that. Do people put their welfare payments on something like that? Do you have resources like that?
- ufmace 10y ago
  What would a concrete example look like to you? They don't do these things on the internet or with apps, it's all face-to-face and word of mouth. I wouldn't bet on there being any academic studies of it either. Likely all we'll ever have is personal anecdotes from people who have been involved in these communities and somehow ended up spending much more time on the internet than is the norm there.
  - phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
    Someone else pointed out googling "tide as currency", and that opened my eyes. It made me realize that people doing this are working with pointers, not values.
    - gertef 10y ago
      All currency is a "pointer", not "value". That's the purpose of currency.
- diydsp 10y ago
  Try googling things like "food stamps black market"... It happens, but it's only about 1%. How much time and effort should we spend trying to eradicate that last 1% of fraud? [1] http://www.ktnv.com/news/busted-black-market-food-stamps http://www.ktnv.com/news/busted-black-market-food-stamps [2] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/19/food-stamp-black-market-rise/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/19/food-stamp-b... [3] http://thoughtfulwomen.org/2012/10/16/black-market-for-food-stamps-is-alive-and-well/ http://thoughtfulwomen.org/2012/10/16/black-market-for-food-... [4] http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/02/16/investigation-uncovers-people-selling-taxpayer-funded-food-stamps/ http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/02/16/investigation-unco... [5] http://articles.philly.com/1994-06-02/news/25833443_1_food-stamps-food-stamp-program-financial-exchange http://articles.philly.com/1994-06-02/news/25833443_1_food-s...
  - DrScump 10y ago
    Did you read #3? "sales of Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program vouchers brought in $858 million in cash in the 2009-2011 period" That's almost $300M/year just for SNAP benefits. $300M here, $300M there, and pretty soon, you're talking real money.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > on HN, I've seen stolen credit card marketplaces and things like that. Do people put their welfare payments on something like that? Sometimes, yes, people sell EBT cards online (a quick googling finds numerous reports of this being done on Craigslist and Facebook.) Othertimes, they convert benefits to concrete goods, which are then sold at below-market prices to convert into cash to by things that would not be allowed by the benefit program (or traded directly for other goods, with the seller of the other goods either using the traded goods or selling them for cash.)
  - phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
    Yep, I did some reading since my original post and came to the conclusion I'm just naive.

roel_v 10y ago

Google "tide as currency". It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
Huh. Thanks, I think. Not because of you, but because of humanity.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Theft and onselling of stolen goods is enough to make you question humanity? You really are naïve.
  - phjesusthatguy3 10y ago
    Yeah, that's why I said so before you did. Thanks?

throwanem 10y ago

Here in Baltimore, the usual benefits fraud method involves small shop owners willing to claim false purchases to a given value, then disburse an equal value in cash partly to the benefits claimant and partly to themselves as a profit - so, yeah, you actually can just turn your SNAP card into cash, albeit at a sizable discount. No doubt the same is true of a Bridge card.

ams6110 10y ago

They can simply sell the card at a discount to what it's worth. The buyer can then use it to purchase goods that he needs and pocket the difference, or resell them at normal retail or more. It's a huge problem. http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2015/06/fraud_ring_that_turned_ebt_car.html http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2015/06/fraud_ri...