4 ms·

A Renegade Muscles in on Mister Softee’s Turf

50 points by juanplusjuan 10y ago

m-i-l 10y ago
So are the "threats and intimidation that sometimes get physical" purely due to ice cream sales, or are there illicit goods also being sold from the vans (as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars )?
- ryanong 10y ago
  Location is a serious thing in NYC for vendors. If someone moves within 10 feet of you, imagine your daily revenue cut in half. Sometimes vendors will informally buy locations from other vendors.
  - tantalor 10y ago
    Setting up shop directly next to your competitor is the best choice, i.e., Nash equilibrium. That's why all the gas stations and coffee shops cluster up instead of spreading out. For example, on a beach, you should expect 2 ice cream vendors to cluster in the exact middle rather than move closer to their respective territories. This video explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jILgxeNBK_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jILgxeNBK_8
    - kmill 10y ago
      Unlike gas stations and coffee shops, which have static locations, ice cream trucks are more like buses. When a pair of buses on a route bunch up, the one in front gets fuller.
      - jacobush 10y ago
        ...fuller of money.
        HarryHirsch 10y ago
        Notional Express proved that that is true, when they "disrupted" public transportation in Britain.
RankingMember 10y ago
This seems amazingly over-the-top. I get that it's their living, but I'm amazed there hasn't been some sort of resolution (e.g. giving out a fixed number of licenses like they do with cabs). People threatening to kill each other and cutting brake lines, etc. sounds like something that would've been tolerated in 70s and 80s New York, but not present day.
woodruffw 10y ago
I've lived in NYC my entire life, and I've never even heard of New York Ice Cream. Mr. Softee's has always been the dominant (and singular) soft-serve truck. Interesting that someone is challenging their dominance, although I doubt this will play out as well as the dollar-pizza wars for the average pedestrian.
- tosseraccount 10y ago
  The real NYC pizza war: http://kottke.org/11/04/the-mafia-and-nyc-pizza-cheese http://kottke.org/11/04/the-mafia-and-nyc-pizza-cheese Al Capone -- who owned a string of dairy farms near Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin -- forced New York pizzerias to use his rubbery mob cheese, so different from the real mozzarella [...] this is why John's Pizzeria on Bleecker Street still has the warning "No Slices" on its awning today.
- pimlottc 10y ago
  The article says that New York Ice Cream only started sometime around 2013 and only "locked down" the midtown area last year, so perhaps that's why you've never heard of them before.
- mikegioia 10y ago
  The dollar-pizza wars hit their beautiful height when I walking down 1st ave between 13th/14th a few years ago. I counted 5 in one block! What a wonderful gift dollar-pizza has been. I often wonder how many able-bodied men and women they feed every day. It's gotta be hundreds of thousands.
noonespecial 10y ago
Sounds ripe for "Uber for Ice-cream". Pull out your phone and the truck comes to you.
- kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
  You could have that with Seamless today if you had delivery riders with insulated boxes.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
> Mr. Conway said Mister Softee had not sought legal remedy for the bullying. “It’s just the way it is,” he said. “Life on the street.” What? What the fuck? These are ice cream trucks, not drug dealers. Why aren't they protecting their employees? If it's as bad as they say, all they'd need is a few security cameras and the police could start making arrests.
- galago 10y ago
  It sounds like a 'cash heavy' business that might not want a lot of regulatory scrutiny. Plus, the choice spots might technically be in violation of some NYC code and they don't want the cops getting precise about what is and isn't legal. I was in NYC last weekend and I noticed that they squeeze in at the end of blocks where there isn't really a proper parking space.
- def8cefe 10y ago
  Because they use the same intimidation tactics (the operator obviously didn't want to cop to this in the article, but the author mentions some instances) and both companies would suffer if either persued legal action. The truck operators stand to gain a lot more turf by hiring thugs and former service members who will not be intimidated or will intimidate competition than with legal action. Also keep in mind this is a cash-only franchise business operating at non-fixed locations in NYC... cameras are not in the best interests of the truck operators.
ape4 10y ago
So this isn't about Microsoft's turf on the PC being challenged by mobile.
davidw 10y ago
Hotelling's law.... with baseball bats.
2xlbuds 10y ago
There was a great Radiolab episode about this: http://www.radiolab.org/story/cold-war/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/cold-war/
hkissinger 10y ago
All i could think about while reading this was the Curb Your Enthusiasm Episode where Larry David freaks out every time he listens to the Mister Softee song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECoY6PkRsIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECoY6PkRsIg
sandymcmurray 10y ago
Recommended: Comfort & Joy, the Bill Forsyth comedy about an ice cream war in Glasgow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_and_Joy_(1984_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_and_Joy_(1984_film)

50 points by juanplusjuan 10y ago

m-i-l 10y ago

So are the "threats and intimidation that sometimes get physical" purely due to ice cream sales, or are there illicit goods also being sold from the vans (as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars )?

ryanong 10y ago
Location is a serious thing in NYC for vendors. If someone moves within 10 feet of you, imagine your daily revenue cut in half. Sometimes vendors will informally buy locations from other vendors.
- tantalor 10y ago
  Setting up shop directly next to your competitor is the best choice, i.e., Nash equilibrium. That's why all the gas stations and coffee shops cluster up instead of spreading out. For example, on a beach, you should expect 2 ice cream vendors to cluster in the exact middle rather than move closer to their respective territories. This video explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jILgxeNBK_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jILgxeNBK_8
  - kmill 10y ago
    Unlike gas stations and coffee shops, which have static locations, ice cream trucks are more like buses. When a pair of buses on a route bunch up, the one in front gets fuller.
    - jacobush 10y ago
      ...fuller of money.
      - HarryHirsch 10y ago
        Notional Express proved that that is true, when they "disrupted" public transportation in Britain.

RankingMember 10y ago

This seems amazingly over-the-top. I get that it's their living, but I'm amazed there hasn't been some sort of resolution (e.g. giving out a fixed number of licenses like they do with cabs). People threatening to kill each other and cutting brake lines, etc. sounds like something that would've been tolerated in 70s and 80s New York, but not present day.

woodruffw 10y ago

I've lived in NYC my entire life, and I've never even heard of New York Ice Cream. Mr. Softee's has always been the dominant (and singular) soft-serve truck. Interesting that someone is challenging their dominance, although I doubt this will play out as well as the dollar-pizza wars for the average pedestrian.

tosseraccount 10y ago
The real NYC pizza war: http://kottke.org/11/04/the-mafia-and-nyc-pizza-cheese http://kottke.org/11/04/the-mafia-and-nyc-pizza-cheese Al Capone -- who owned a string of dairy farms near Fond Du Lac, Wisconsin -- forced New York pizzerias to use his rubbery mob cheese, so different from the real mozzarella [...] this is why John's Pizzeria on Bleecker Street still has the warning "No Slices" on its awning today.
pimlottc 10y ago
The article says that New York Ice Cream only started sometime around 2013 and only "locked down" the midtown area last year, so perhaps that's why you've never heard of them before.
mikegioia 10y ago
The dollar-pizza wars hit their beautiful height when I walking down 1st ave between 13th/14th a few years ago. I counted 5 in one block! What a wonderful gift dollar-pizza has been. I often wonder how many able-bodied men and women they feed every day. It's gotta be hundreds of thousands.

noonespecial 10y ago

Sounds ripe for "Uber for Ice-cream". Pull out your phone and the truck comes to you.

kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
You could have that with Seamless today if you had delivery riders with insulated boxes.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

> Mr. Conway said Mister Softee had not sought legal remedy for the bullying. “It’s just the way it is,” he said. “Life on the street.” What? What the fuck? These are ice cream trucks, not drug dealers. Why aren't they protecting their employees? If it's as bad as they say, all they'd need is a few security cameras and the police could start making arrests.

galago 10y ago
It sounds like a 'cash heavy' business that might not want a lot of regulatory scrutiny. Plus, the choice spots might technically be in violation of some NYC code and they don't want the cops getting precise about what is and isn't legal. I was in NYC last weekend and I noticed that they squeeze in at the end of blocks where there isn't really a proper parking space.
def8cefe 10y ago
Because they use the same intimidation tactics (the operator obviously didn't want to cop to this in the article, but the author mentions some instances) and both companies would suffer if either persued legal action. The truck operators stand to gain a lot more turf by hiring thugs and former service members who will not be intimidated or will intimidate competition than with legal action. Also keep in mind this is a cash-only franchise business operating at non-fixed locations in NYC... cameras are not in the best interests of the truck operators.

ape4 10y ago

So this isn't about Microsoft's turf on the PC being challenged by mobile.

davidw 10y ago

Hotelling's law.... with baseball bats.

2xlbuds 10y ago

There was a great Radiolab episode about this: http://www.radiolab.org/story/cold-war/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/cold-war/

hkissinger 10y ago

All i could think about while reading this was the Curb Your Enthusiasm Episode where Larry David freaks out every time he listens to the Mister Softee song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECoY6PkRsIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECoY6PkRsIg

sandymcmurray 10y ago

Recommended: Comfort & Joy, the Bill Forsyth comedy about an ice cream war in Glasgow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_and_Joy_(1984_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_and_Joy_(1984_film)