4 ms·

If you are really serious about Basic Income, I strongly encourage you to look at the Kollel system within the ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities (i.e. Lakewood

If you are really serious about Basic Income, I strongly encourage you to look at the Kollel system within the ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities (i.e. Lakewood, NJ) While their model is conditional, the framework for providing a stipend to cover basic necessities so the kollel members are free to study, is very similar. You will see a glimpse of what happens. There is amazing achievement, and there is abuse of the system. There are unparalleled social services powered by the community (i.e. hundreds of lending "GMach's" which lend and share everything from baby strollers to expensive fertility meds.) If you want a glimpse into how Basic Income will work, looking at the full spectrum of Lakewood New Jersey would be eye opening. You will see some of the most amazing examples of selflessness and accomplishment and you will see outrageous abuse of the system. All in All, people will be people and the only solution that is sustainable is focusing on solving for the cause, not subsidizing the effect. For all the kollel stipends that are paid out, ultimately, peoples true nature wins out. The only thing we can do is work to improve that nature. Better People make a better world, not better circumstances. (for what its worth, I am a fan of the idea of basic income, after all...if people will be people, than lets at least make sure no one has to suffer from starvation or homelessness.)

gist 10y ago
However that is a small community geographically so I wonder how that would work on a larger more anonymous basis without the social pressures that certainly in Lakewood.
- davemel37 10y ago
  There are hundreds, if not thousands of Kollels throughout the world that work in much the same way. I think what we see in those communities is that peoples true nature is the driving force (almost) regardless of circumstances or financial needs. The social pressure is a fair point, but I am not entirely convinced that social pressure wont exist on a broader, more anonymous basis too. Most social pressure is internal, not external (i.e. we tell ourselves that we are expected to conform, but in reality, that might not be true.) Not to say social pressure isn't reflective of the external norms, or that people aren't judgmental, but ultimately, someone getting Basic Income will likely feel their own social pressure, real or imagined, regardless of how anonymous it is. (IMHO) Ultimately though, the Kollel system is a good place to start and study if Basic Income is being considered seriously, as they have 30-50 years of history and data.
jomamaxx 10y ago
"ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities" Ultro Orthodox Jews / Mennonites etc. have a very strong set of social rules, and very conservative behavioural expectations. You can't compare someone in such a community to the American population at large. The 'ethos' in a religious community centres around faith, family, duty, responsibility. In America, it's 'personal aspiration'. They can hardly be used as an experimental basis.
- davemel37 10y ago
  Maybe you can't compare it, but you can still learn from it.
judah 10y ago
> "For all the kollel stipends that are paid out, ultimately, peoples true nature wins out. The only thing we can do is work to improve that nature." And that is for a community with a strong ethical and moral standards. If "people's true nature wins out" is the deciding factor in a larger experiment, I'd expect to see more abuse.

gist 10y ago

However that is a small community geographically so I wonder how that would work on a larger more anonymous basis without the social pressures that certainly in Lakewood.

davemel37 10y ago
There are hundreds, if not thousands of Kollels throughout the world that work in much the same way. I think what we see in those communities is that peoples true nature is the driving force (almost) regardless of circumstances or financial needs. The social pressure is a fair point, but I am not entirely convinced that social pressure wont exist on a broader, more anonymous basis too. Most social pressure is internal, not external (i.e. we tell ourselves that we are expected to conform, but in reality, that might not be true.) Not to say social pressure isn't reflective of the external norms, or that people aren't judgmental, but ultimately, someone getting Basic Income will likely feel their own social pressure, real or imagined, regardless of how anonymous it is. (IMHO) Ultimately though, the Kollel system is a good place to start and study if Basic Income is being considered seriously, as they have 30-50 years of history and data.

jomamaxx 10y ago

"ultra-orthodox/yeshiva communities" Ultro Orthodox Jews / Mennonites etc. have a very strong set of social rules, and very conservative behavioural expectations. You can't compare someone in such a community to the American population at large. The 'ethos' in a religious community centres around faith, family, duty, responsibility. In America, it's 'personal aspiration'. They can hardly be used as an experimental basis.

davemel37 10y ago
Maybe you can't compare it, but you can still learn from it.

judah 10y ago

> "For all the kollel stipends that are paid out, ultimately, peoples true nature wins out. The only thing we can do is work to improve that nature." And that is for a community with a strong ethical and moral standards. If "people's true nature wins out" is the deciding factor in a larger experiment, I'd expect to see more abuse.