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Comments like this are exactly why people are afraid to release projects to the public and contribute to open source.

by jotux 10y ago

adekok 10y ago
If you're afraid of negative feedback, you will never do anything, and you will never learn anything. In this case, I'm astonished at just how many bad practices the author has engaged in. Do most software projects have structs / functions / whatever where the names are versioned? It's one thing for TempleOS to invent his own OS, build system, programming language, GUI, etc. He made some odd choices, but at least he's clear he doesn't care (much) about other people using his code. And, it's clear his code works, and does something useful. The author of this library has invented many of his own programming practices... which are clearly worse than current industry practices. Why? I can't say. But I can say that they are worse. I just don't understand this attitude that all feedback has to be couched carefully to avoid hurting anyones feelings. If it's bad, it's bad. Perhaps you could be productive, and post your review of his code. If it's in any way negative, (by your standards), I should jump on the review as being overly negative, and "you're the reason why people don't do open source." Adults should be able to take criticism. If they can't, I have very little sympathy for them.
- jotux 10y ago
  >I just don't understand this attitude that all feedback has to be couched carefully to avoid hurting anyones feelings. >Adults should be able to take criticism. If they can't, I have very little sympathy for them. Again, your outlook is toxic to newcomers. Yes people should be able to handle criticism but you should be capable of crafting that criticism in a way that isn't mean spirited and rude. I wish more projects and communities had code of conduct rules similar to the rust language: https://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html https://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html Which includes rules your comment would obviously violate: Please be kind and courteous. There’s no need to be mean or rude.
  - cyphar 10y ago
    > >I just don't understand this attitude that all feedback has to be couched carefully to avoid hurting anyones feelings. > >Adults should be able to take criticism. If they can't, I have very little sympathy for them. > Again, your outlook is toxic to newcomers. Yes people should be able to handle criticism but you should be capable of crafting that criticism in a way that isn't mean spirited and rude. I don't think that's a fair statement. If someone has done something badly, they've done it badly and they should be told that. You're not doing anyone any benefit by sugar coating it by first saying "great job on trying". Personally, I prefer getting a frank and honest review of my work rather than having to tease out why someone doesn't like it but they won't state it plainly because they'll "hurt my feelings". We're discussing code, and if code is bad then we should make it clear that it's bad, say how to do it better, and move on.
    - jotux 10y ago
      I agree completely with what you're saying but this: >This looks like it was written by a 16 year-old student who heard "lock free", and went "cool, I'll write a library!" And he missed the last 40 years of software best practices. Is not constructive criticism, it's just being rude.
      - adekok 10y ago
        You're unwilling to give constructive criticism yourself. I suspect because you know that by your standards, any negative criticism can be labeled as "mean and rude". You've been given multiple opportunities to give positive criticism yourself. And you've refused. Your position is entirely negative. For something where you are more offended than the author of the library. He's an adult, and he can defend himself. You're infantilizing him by protecting him from things where he doesn't want protection. The code of conduct you linked to would seem to prohibit your overly negative behavior. i.e. your comments have come across (to use a common phrase here), as toxic.
  - adekok 10y ago
    > Again, your outlook is toxic to newcomers. I disagree. > you should be capable of crafting that criticism in a way that isn't mean spirited and rude. As I suggested, perhaps you could give some positive criticism of your own, and give your review. Not doing that means you're demanding I do something which you won't do. This is not a trivial point. I'll bet that you'll find it difficult to craft a technical review which points out the flaws in his software, without anyone being able to claim it's being "mean and rude". Try it. Please. > I wish more projects and communities had code of conduct rules That's nice. But I wish more projects had code of conduct rules on people asking questions. I've been doing open source for 20+ years. There is a large subset of people who don't read the documentation, don't ask good questions, who ignore all attempts to help them... ... but ... their behavior is superficially polite. Until they get frustrated that "no one is helping them", and they start complaining that everyone is being mean to them. That behavior is toxic, and I have no patience for it. Yet strangely, I've yet to see a "code of conduct" which deals with this issue. It's open source... you shouldn't demand that other people help you, no matter how politely you make that request. And (as with most such arguments I've had), I'll note that you're more offended by my comments than the author is. Such over-sensitivity seems to me "problematic". The author is an adult. He can clearly take criticism. Perhaps learning from his example would be good.
devishard 10y ago
So? I don't think the world needs more bad open-source code. If people only open-source good code, then that saves everyone the trouble of sifting through the junk like this. People being afraid to open source bad code would be a good thing. And having a top comment on HN warning me that the code is pretty bad saves me time, too, because I don't have to read the code or try using it to find that out. So I really appreciate people publicly pointing out that the code is bad. I'd feel more positive about this code if it had been submitted with a request for code review and feedback rather than being presented as a "a portable, license-free, lock-free data structure library written in C" with a whole website advertising it as being ready for use.
- cyphar 10y ago
  I think making all code free software would allow bad code to be fixed, which would result in a much better state of affairs than having proprietary software that won't ever be made free because the author won't fix it.

Comments like this are exactly why people are afraid to release projects to the public and contribute to open source.

by jotux 10y ago

Comments like this are exactly why people are afraid to release projects to the public and contribute to open source.

If you're afraid of negative feedback, you will never do anything, and you will never learn anything. In this case, I'm astonished at just how many bad practices the author has engaged in. Do most software projects have structs / functions / whatever where the names are versioned? It's one thing for TempleOS to invent his own OS, build system, programming language, GUI, etc. He made some odd choices, but at least he's clear he doesn't care (much) about other people using his code. And, it's clear his code works, and does something useful. The author of this library has invented many of his own programming practices... which are clearly worse than current industry practices. Why? I can't say. But I can say that they are worse. I just don't understand this attitude that all feedback has to be couched carefully to avoid hurting anyones feelings. If it's bad, it's bad. Perhaps you could be productive, and post your review of his code. If it's in any way negative, (by your standards), I should jump on the review as being overly negative, and "you're the reason why people don't do open source." Adults should be able to take criticism. If they can't, I have very little sympathy for them.

jotux 10y ago
>I just don't understand this attitude that all feedback has to be couched carefully to avoid hurting anyones feelings. >Adults should be able to take criticism. If they can't, I have very little sympathy for them. Again, your outlook is toxic to newcomers. Yes people should be able to handle criticism but you should be capable of crafting that criticism in a way that isn't mean spirited and rude. I wish more projects and communities had code of conduct rules similar to the rust language: https://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html https://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html Which includes rules your comment would obviously violate: Please be kind and courteous. There’s no need to be mean or rude.
- cyphar 10y ago
  > >I just don't understand this attitude that all feedback has to be couched carefully to avoid hurting anyones feelings. > >Adults should be able to take criticism. If they can't, I have very little sympathy for them. > Again, your outlook is toxic to newcomers. Yes people should be able to handle criticism but you should be capable of crafting that criticism in a way that isn't mean spirited and rude. I don't think that's a fair statement. If someone has done something badly, they've done it badly and they should be told that. You're not doing anyone any benefit by sugar coating it by first saying "great job on trying". Personally, I prefer getting a frank and honest review of my work rather than having to tease out why someone doesn't like it but they won't state it plainly because they'll "hurt my feelings". We're discussing code, and if code is bad then we should make it clear that it's bad, say how to do it better, and move on.
  - jotux 10y ago
    I agree completely with what you're saying but this: >This looks like it was written by a 16 year-old student who heard "lock free", and went "cool, I'll write a library!" And he missed the last 40 years of software best practices. Is not constructive criticism, it's just being rude.
    - adekok 10y ago
      You're unwilling to give constructive criticism yourself. I suspect because you know that by your standards, any negative criticism can be labeled as "mean and rude". You've been given multiple opportunities to give positive criticism yourself. And you've refused. Your position is entirely negative. For something where you are more offended than the author of the library. He's an adult, and he can defend himself. You're infantilizing him by protecting him from things where he doesn't want protection. The code of conduct you linked to would seem to prohibit your overly negative behavior. i.e. your comments have come across (to use a common phrase here), as toxic.
- adekok 10y ago
  > Again, your outlook is toxic to newcomers. I disagree. > you should be capable of crafting that criticism in a way that isn't mean spirited and rude. As I suggested, perhaps you could give some positive criticism of your own, and give your review. Not doing that means you're demanding I do something which you won't do. This is not a trivial point. I'll bet that you'll find it difficult to craft a technical review which points out the flaws in his software, without anyone being able to claim it's being "mean and rude". Try it. Please. > I wish more projects and communities had code of conduct rules That's nice. But I wish more projects had code of conduct rules on people asking questions. I've been doing open source for 20+ years. There is a large subset of people who don't read the documentation, don't ask good questions, who ignore all attempts to help them... ... but ... their behavior is superficially polite. Until they get frustrated that "no one is helping them", and they start complaining that everyone is being mean to them. That behavior is toxic, and I have no patience for it. Yet strangely, I've yet to see a "code of conduct" which deals with this issue. It's open source... you shouldn't demand that other people help you, no matter how politely you make that request. And (as with most such arguments I've had), I'll note that you're more offended by my comments than the author is. Such over-sensitivity seems to me "problematic". The author is an adult. He can clearly take criticism. Perhaps learning from his example would be good.

devishard 10y ago

So? I don't think the world needs more bad open-source code. If people only open-source good code, then that saves everyone the trouble of sifting through the junk like this. People being afraid to open source bad code would be a good thing. And having a top comment on HN warning me that the code is pretty bad saves me time, too, because I don't have to read the code or try using it to find that out. So I really appreciate people publicly pointing out that the code is bad. I'd feel more positive about this code if it had been submitted with a request for code review and feedback rather than being presented as a "a portable, license-free, lock-free data structure library written in C" with a whole website advertising it as being ready for use.

cyphar 10y ago
I think making all code free software would allow bad code to be fixed, which would result in a much better state of affairs than having proprietary software that won't ever be made free because the author won't fix it.