4 ms·

>>> I have 10 years experience with references. I have code that I've built, deployed to production still running today. I have cultivated my own clients, gathe

by gedrap 10y ago

>>> I have 10 years experience with references. I have code that I've built, deployed to production still running today. I have cultivated my own clients, gathered requirements and built something that delivers business value. I don't really agree with this statement. The truth is that there are a lot of folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't even pass as junior devs at many places. I've seen people with 10+ years of experience rolling out their own web frameworks (and definitely not good ones) every year or two, developers who have never written a single unit test (they don't see the point of it; also the software there was the most bug ridden product I have ever seen, surprise surprise). Their employers were not technical at all so were relatively happy with the results. You wouldn't marry a person after knowing them for a day, just because someone said that he/she is a lovely person, would you? Same here with hiring. But hiring is a 2-way street. If you completely disagree with the hiring procedure at a company, then you are probably not a good fit, and that's fine :)

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
> The truth is that there are a lot of folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't even pass as junior devs at many places. Sure but this really has nothing to do with the parent's post. The parent said they have references and the experience and code in production. All of this is verifiable short of, say, DoD contract work. I doubt you have worked with folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't pass as junior developers who also had references and verifiable code running in a production environment (and if you did I would imagine that's a fluke negative hire). > But hiring is a 2-way street. If you completely disagree with the hiring procedure at a company, then you are probably not a good fit, and that's fine :) Considering almost every technology company hires the same way and the employees typically have the "I went through it so you have to do" attitude you're not really going to find another company that has a "better" hiring procedure. Your response is more facetious than realistic. If you want to be a developer you don't have much choice than to go through the system that has been studied to death and known to be flawed.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  >Sure but this really has nothing to do with the parent's post. The parent said they have references and the experience and code in production. All of this is verifiable short of, say, DoD contract work. It has everything to do with it. References are completely useless unless you happen to be lucky enough to know one of their references well. A random stranger saying "Bob knows X" is just as useless as Bob telling me he knows X. The references opinion is likely worthless, I can't bet my business on it. And how are we supposed to verify the quality of this in production code, much less its existence? >I doubt you have worked with folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't pass as junior developers who also had references and verifiable code running in a production environment (and if you did I would imagine that's a fluke negative hire). That's easily 95%+ people with 10 years experience. Everyone has references, that is not something that is hard to acquire or meaningful in any way. Wordpress is running in production all over, I sure as hell wouldn't want to hire any of the people involved in it.
  - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    References are all about verifiability otherwise it's just a random person saying something about another person; without context a reference is useless. You need to find a way to verify them which I'll admit is hard but without that they're completely useless. Open source is usually the best indicator here as they can literally point you to code they worked on. > Everyone has references, that is not something that is hard to acquire or meaningful in any way. A literal reference without context isn't useful. That's why, in my original text I caveated it with verifiable code running in a production environment. > Wordpress is running in production all over, I sure as hell wouldn't want to hire any of the people involved in it. Ouch. It's not the greatest code but they made something, it worked and it's been scaled all over the place. Seems like they could have some solid people involved in it in my opinion.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      >You need to find a way to verify them Such as? >That's why, in my original text I caveated it with verifiable code running in a production environment. Again, how do you verify that? Much less the quality of that code? >It's not the greatest code but they made something, it worked and it's been scaled all over the place The bar for hiring here is not that low. "I wrote some horrible buggy crap that is full of security holes and has cost millions of dollars" isn't a good sales pitch. >Seems like they could have some solid people involved in it in my opinion. The code says otherwise.

by gedrap 10y ago

BinaryIdiot 10y ago

> The truth is that there are a lot of folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't even pass as junior devs at many places. Sure but this really has nothing to do with the parent's post. The parent said they have references and the experience and code in production. All of this is verifiable short of, say, DoD contract work. I doubt you have worked with folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't pass as junior developers who also had references and verifiable code running in a production environment (and if you did I would imagine that's a fluke negative hire). > But hiring is a 2-way street. If you completely disagree with the hiring procedure at a company, then you are probably not a good fit, and that's fine :) Considering almost every technology company hires the same way and the employees typically have the "I went through it so you have to do" attitude you're not really going to find another company that has a "better" hiring procedure. Your response is more facetious than realistic. If you want to be a developer you don't have much choice than to go through the system that has been studied to death and known to be flawed.

MustardTiger 10y ago
>Sure but this really has nothing to do with the parent's post. The parent said they have references and the experience and code in production. All of this is verifiable short of, say, DoD contract work. It has everything to do with it. References are completely useless unless you happen to be lucky enough to know one of their references well. A random stranger saying "Bob knows X" is just as useless as Bob telling me he knows X. The references opinion is likely worthless, I can't bet my business on it. And how are we supposed to verify the quality of this in production code, much less its existence? >I doubt you have worked with folks with 10+ years of experience who wouldn't pass as junior developers who also had references and verifiable code running in a production environment (and if you did I would imagine that's a fluke negative hire). That's easily 95%+ people with 10 years experience. Everyone has references, that is not something that is hard to acquire or meaningful in any way. Wordpress is running in production all over, I sure as hell wouldn't want to hire any of the people involved in it.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  References are all about verifiability otherwise it's just a random person saying something about another person; without context a reference is useless. You need to find a way to verify them which I'll admit is hard but without that they're completely useless. Open source is usually the best indicator here as they can literally point you to code they worked on. > Everyone has references, that is not something that is hard to acquire or meaningful in any way. A literal reference without context isn't useful. That's why, in my original text I caveated it with verifiable code running in a production environment. > Wordpress is running in production all over, I sure as hell wouldn't want to hire any of the people involved in it. Ouch. It's not the greatest code but they made something, it worked and it's been scaled all over the place. Seems like they could have some solid people involved in it in my opinion.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    >You need to find a way to verify them Such as? >That's why, in my original text I caveated it with verifiable code running in a production environment. Again, how do you verify that? Much less the quality of that code? >It's not the greatest code but they made something, it worked and it's been scaled all over the place The bar for hiring here is not that low. "I wrote some horrible buggy crap that is full of security holes and has cost millions of dollars" isn't a good sales pitch. >Seems like they could have some solid people involved in it in my opinion. The code says otherwise.