6 ms·

Thank you, this was almost exactly what I was going to respond with. My only addition: "Alternatively, we can write/review some code on a whiteboard."

enraged_camel 10y ago
It's well documented that whiteboard exercises are terrible for evaluating candidates. A lot of people, developers especially, don't perform well under pressure (stress reduces cognitive ability). Not only that, but you will also alienate a great many experienced candidates. If you are OK with all that, fine I guess. But I thought it was widely agreed upon that the software industry needs better hiring practices.
- TheCoelacanth 10y ago
  Admittedly, whiteboard exercises are not good, but what better alternative is there that will not take an order of magnitude more time?
- efaref 10y ago
  If by "well documented" you mean "lots of people have whinged about it at great length", then I guess you're right. It's also a "tried and tested" method, too, so it's got that going for it. I think if you approach them correctly (like the author suggests), then actually they're fine for their intended use. (Not perfect, but this is the real world, nothing's perfect). If you can't cope with scrawling some pseudocode on a whiteboard because that's "too much pressure" then you're going to really struggle when a deadline looms and we "absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line."
  - xentronium 10y ago
    > If by "well documented" you mean "lots of people have whinged about it at great length", then I guess you're right. It's also a "tried and tested" method, too, so it's got that going for it. You are wrong. Just because it's most used currently doesn't mean it's better. And it is actually well documented. @tokenadult posted this numerous times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4879803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4879803
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    > If you can't cope with scrawling some pseudocode on a whiteboard because that's "too much pressure" then you're going to really struggle when a deadline looms and we "absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line." First, "scrawling some pseudocode on a whiteboard" and "we absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line" are not the same thing and it is fallacious to use performance on one to infer performance on the other. "Stress" is not some universal feeling that differs from situation to situation only in amount. It has types, which different people handle differently. Second, related to my response to a sibling comment, if "we absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line" has a high enough probability of occurring that it is worthwhile to screen candidates for ability to handle this, your company is fundamentally broken and you are trying to use your hiring to compensate for the real problems.
- ori_b 10y ago
  > A lot of people, developers especially, don't perform well under pressure (stress reduces cognitive ability). A lot of places value people who work well under pressure. (A bad push taking down all the server's I'd stressful)
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    Meaning a lot of places have shitty processes and architecture and try to compensate by hiring people that fit their broken system. Case in point: having an architecture so fragile that a bad push is capable of taking down all your servers.
    - sokoloff 10y ago
      Trivial to have a breaking DB change or a software push where the only part of the app that works is the little part that tells the load balancer, "yep, I'm alive and healthy; send some traffic my way". There are probably way more successful (100-million to couple billion dollar revenue) companies that can be brought offline with a bad push than can't.
      - ori_b 10y ago
        Or a load balancer push that ignores the 'yep, I'm alive and healthy' bit and sends traffic anyways.
    - EpicEng 10y ago
      Oh please. Even the best systems will have issues, and there will always be high pressure situations, regardless of the competency of management. It shouldn't be a way of life, but it's simply not practical to expect easy sailing at all times.
- EpicEng 10y ago
  What do you mean by "well documented" exactly? Are you referring to the numerous blog posts where people in the industry complain about it? I wouldn't call that extremely convincing. I understand that some people get stage fright, but I'm not expecting them to come up with a perfect solution; I'm only trying to get an idea of how they think (and whether or not they can actually write code). If they can't do this sort of thing in front of a small group then how are they going to perform in group meetings? Are they just going to sit quietly in the corner the entire time? I can't have that either, and I need some sort of measuring stick. I'd rather lose a good candidate than take on a bad one.

enraged_camel 10y ago

It's well documented that whiteboard exercises are terrible for evaluating candidates. A lot of people, developers especially, don't perform well under pressure (stress reduces cognitive ability). Not only that, but you will also alienate a great many experienced candidates. If you are OK with all that, fine I guess. But I thought it was widely agreed upon that the software industry needs better hiring practices.

TheCoelacanth 10y ago
Admittedly, whiteboard exercises are not good, but what better alternative is there that will not take an order of magnitude more time?
efaref 10y ago
If by "well documented" you mean "lots of people have whinged about it at great length", then I guess you're right. It's also a "tried and tested" method, too, so it's got that going for it. I think if you approach them correctly (like the author suggests), then actually they're fine for their intended use. (Not perfect, but this is the real world, nothing's perfect). If you can't cope with scrawling some pseudocode on a whiteboard because that's "too much pressure" then you're going to really struggle when a deadline looms and we "absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line."
- xentronium 10y ago
  > If by "well documented" you mean "lots of people have whinged about it at great length", then I guess you're right. It's also a "tried and tested" method, too, so it's got that going for it. You are wrong. Just because it's most used currently doesn't mean it's better. And it is actually well documented. @tokenadult posted this numerous times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4879803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4879803
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  > If you can't cope with scrawling some pseudocode on a whiteboard because that's "too much pressure" then you're going to really struggle when a deadline looms and we "absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line." First, "scrawling some pseudocode on a whiteboard" and "we absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line" are not the same thing and it is fallacious to use performance on one to infer performance on the other. "Stress" is not some universal feeling that differs from situation to situation only in amount. It has types, which different people handle differently. Second, related to my response to a sibling comment, if "we absolutely must get this code out to the customer by Friday because a $50M contract is on the line" has a high enough probability of occurring that it is worthwhile to screen candidates for ability to handle this, your company is fundamentally broken and you are trying to use your hiring to compensate for the real problems.
ori_b 10y ago
> A lot of people, developers especially, don't perform well under pressure (stress reduces cognitive ability). A lot of places value people who work well under pressure. (A bad push taking down all the server's I'd stressful)
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  Meaning a lot of places have shitty processes and architecture and try to compensate by hiring people that fit their broken system. Case in point: having an architecture so fragile that a bad push is capable of taking down all your servers.
  - sokoloff 10y ago
    Trivial to have a breaking DB change or a software push where the only part of the app that works is the little part that tells the load balancer, "yep, I'm alive and healthy; send some traffic my way". There are probably way more successful (100-million to couple billion dollar revenue) companies that can be brought offline with a bad push than can't.
    - ori_b 10y ago
      Or a load balancer push that ignores the 'yep, I'm alive and healthy' bit and sends traffic anyways.
  - EpicEng 10y ago
    Oh please. Even the best systems will have issues, and there will always be high pressure situations, regardless of the competency of management. It shouldn't be a way of life, but it's simply not practical to expect easy sailing at all times.
EpicEng 10y ago
What do you mean by "well documented" exactly? Are you referring to the numerous blog posts where people in the industry complain about it? I wouldn't call that extremely convincing. I understand that some people get stage fright, but I'm not expecting them to come up with a perfect solution; I'm only trying to get an idea of how they think (and whether or not they can actually write code). If they can't do this sort of thing in front of a small group then how are they going to perform in group meetings? Are they just going to sit quietly in the corner the entire time? I can't have that either, and I need some sort of measuring stick. I'd rather lose a good candidate than take on a bad one.