4 ms·

>having the computer guess is just a bad idea Not necessarily. If you approach this strictly from a business perspective as a commercial software developer, st

>having the computer guess is just a bad idea Not necessarily. If you approach this strictly from a business perspective as a commercial software developer, statistical guesses (not just about gender) that, for example, delight 70% of your users at the price of upsetting 3% can be worth it.

emmab 10y ago
Do people really care if you use "they" instead of (s)he? I suspect most don't even notice.
- thescribe 10y ago
  If you have the ability to use he or she, like with this algorithm it's a nice touch.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Or a constant annoyance. http://www.robot-hugs.com/cognitive-load/ http://www.robot-hugs.com/cognitive-load/
brian-armstrong 10y ago
Although I think your post is also wrong on an ethical level, which would supercede any business arguments, I'll engage the one you've presented anyway. Upsetting users by misgendering them won't just upset those users, it also has the potential to upset their friends and family. You're not just upsetting them, you're upsetting their network. That 3% starts to look a lot bigger. And if we consider market trends, facebook actually expanded their gender identifying process, rather than simplifying it. Facebook has probably more data than any other entity for the purposes of guessing, and yet they chose to allow users to self-identify anyway. That would suggest it's not a business-correct decision.
- edko 10y ago
  There doesn't necessarily have to be any offence, and this doesn't necessarily have to be about pronouns. Suppose A/B testing on your site shows that female users are more likely to buy your product with a given display alternative over another, while males prefer the opposite. If you guess wrong, you would not be offending users by showing their least likely preferred alternative; you would just be reducing your chances of making a sale.
- pythia__ 10y ago
  >I think your post is also wrong on an ethical level Do you actually mean the argument in the post or the post itself for presenting it? >You're not just upsetting them, you're upsetting their network. Right, this would be a valid concern to an amoral profit maximizer. It would have to be balanced against the potential profits from bad publicity and, more deviously, the benefits of a good "redemption story" of changing the functionality at the upset users' request. As for Facebook, it is an activist business with the power to shape social trends, so it is hard draw conclusions from its particular case.
  - thescribe 10y ago
    I'm curious if Facebook cares about the long list gender box for advertising and demographic purposes. I cynically expect them to not trust what you fill in there.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
Well, assuming that the amount of "delight" on success is comparable to the amount of annoyance on failure. I suspect that most users won't notice or care if the system guesses their gender correctly instead of using gender-neutral terms; but when you misgender a user, they will definitely notice, and they may be extremely annoyed, they may think it's funny and then tell all their friends about how stupid your service is, etc. It doesn't seem like a wise trade-off. Relatedly, deliberately choosing to piss off a subset of users at no major benefit to yourself because you've decided there's not enough of them to affect your bottom line is kind of a dick move, even if it doesn't actually impact your financials directly. That's not a good habit to get into.
bigkm 10y ago
Oh but when I have trouble calling your company because they changed the gender of my record that's ok then. Edit: I get passed around between call center people because they think I'm fraudulent because of software guessing this bullshit

emmab 10y ago

Do people really care if you use "they" instead of (s)he? I suspect most don't even notice.

thescribe 10y ago
If you have the ability to use he or she, like with this algorithm it's a nice touch.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Or a constant annoyance. http://www.robot-hugs.com/cognitive-load/ http://www.robot-hugs.com/cognitive-load/

brian-armstrong 10y ago

Although I think your post is also wrong on an ethical level, which would supercede any business arguments, I'll engage the one you've presented anyway. Upsetting users by misgendering them won't just upset those users, it also has the potential to upset their friends and family. You're not just upsetting them, you're upsetting their network. That 3% starts to look a lot bigger. And if we consider market trends, facebook actually expanded their gender identifying process, rather than simplifying it. Facebook has probably more data than any other entity for the purposes of guessing, and yet they chose to allow users to self-identify anyway. That would suggest it's not a business-correct decision.

edko 10y ago
There doesn't necessarily have to be any offence, and this doesn't necessarily have to be about pronouns. Suppose A/B testing on your site shows that female users are more likely to buy your product with a given display alternative over another, while males prefer the opposite. If you guess wrong, you would not be offending users by showing their least likely preferred alternative; you would just be reducing your chances of making a sale.
pythia__ 10y ago
>I think your post is also wrong on an ethical level Do you actually mean the argument in the post or the post itself for presenting it? >You're not just upsetting them, you're upsetting their network. Right, this would be a valid concern to an amoral profit maximizer. It would have to be balanced against the potential profits from bad publicity and, more deviously, the benefits of a good "redemption story" of changing the functionality at the upset users' request. As for Facebook, it is an activist business with the power to shape social trends, so it is hard draw conclusions from its particular case.
- thescribe 10y ago
  I'm curious if Facebook cares about the long list gender box for advertising and demographic purposes. I cynically expect them to not trust what you fill in there.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

Well, assuming that the amount of "delight" on success is comparable to the amount of annoyance on failure. I suspect that most users won't notice or care if the system guesses their gender correctly instead of using gender-neutral terms; but when you misgender a user, they will definitely notice, and they may be extremely annoyed, they may think it's funny and then tell all their friends about how stupid your service is, etc. It doesn't seem like a wise trade-off. Relatedly, deliberately choosing to piss off a subset of users at no major benefit to yourself because you've decided there's not enough of them to affect your bottom line is kind of a dick move, even if it doesn't actually impact your financials directly. That's not a good habit to get into.

bigkm 10y ago

Oh but when I have trouble calling your company because they changed the gender of my record that's ok then. Edit: I get passed around between call center people because they think I'm fraudulent because of software guessing this bullshit