4 ms·

Russia occupied half of Europe, against the will of the countries occupied, for nearly 50 years. Stop re-writing history.

aaronchall 10y ago
> Russia occupied half of Europe, against the will of the countries occupied, for nearly 50 years. Good point. Seems like we forget this.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  How would you define "against their will"? I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads (however I'm aware about Hungary'56 and Chezhoslovakia'68) This isn't a fair argument. Imagine, tomorrow USA fails, a lot of its former allies get current marginal opposition in power. They'll line up telling how USA occupied them, did this and that against their will. And they'll be partially right. Partially wrong. The boundaries in Europe after WWII were determined by WWII. That's how it went.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    To expand on your point: It wasn't Russia who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968. It was entire Warsaw pact. Or, almost entire. There was one country, that didn't take part: Romania. Out of the entire Warsaw pact only Ceaușescu's Romania had the backbone to not invade. Others, like GDR, Poland, Hungary, took their part voluntarily. (That's nothing new: Poland and Hungary attacked the rump Czechoslovakia in 1938 too. That's just expanding your second paragraph). There is yet another twist - even for USSR, it wasn't Russia itself. It was USSR, which was comprised of many more countries at the time. The units that were in Czechoslovakia were Ukrainians. And before there are arguments, that they were commanded from Moscow, the head honcho at the time was Brezhnev, from Ukraine.
    - pinaceae 10y ago
      who gave the orders? who was in charge? was it the kremlin or the marsians?
  - woodandsteel 10y ago
    Except those were all non-democratic puppet governments the Soviet Union had installed after WWII. Or maybe you believe communism is a form of democracy?
    - vetinari 10y ago
      I was born in the Czechoslovakia. The thing is, that communists in 1948 really did win the elections. The people at the time really wanted communism. Just like in 1989 they wanted change for capitalism. Who knows, maybe in another 10-20-30 years they will want a change again. Should it be accompanied with a narrative, that the fall of Iron Curtain was a well orchestrated putsch to rob their countries?
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        >The thing is, that communists in 1948 really did win the elections. Elections where the population was presented with a single list and where the police force and officials overseeing the election had been purged - both the army and police force were under Soviet-influenced Communist control. The only non-Communist minister, Jan Masaryk, was found defenestrated outside his office. (This was declared a suicide, but in 2004 Soviet archives indeed confirmed that he'd been thrown out of his window). In simpler terms, this is called coup d'état. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d%27%C3...
  - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
    >I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads That's because these "representatives" were not representing the people of their countries. They were representing the interests of the USSR in those countries. I'll give you an example of what it looks like when something does not happen against the will of a country. In the 1960s, at the hight of the cold war, France asked NATO to leave its country and withdrew its own troups from NATO command. NATO left, and that was it.
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      They were certainly influenced to unhealthy degree, but those were still national countries represented by people of their nations. I imagine Soviets just took leading Polish/Hungarian/etc communist parties and made them the government. They still were Poles/Hungarians/etc. In 1968, Albania withdrew from Warsaw pact. And that was it.
      - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
        The people of those countries were never asked who they wanted to represent them. So there were no representatives.
        guard-of-terra 10y ago
        So you think that any non-democratic country is totally irresponsible for what happens inside? This in the world where China and Saudi Arabia are top players.
        fauigerzigerk 10y ago
        I would not characterise the actions of undemocratic regimes as representing the "will of the country". The fact that we accept undemocratic regimes as legal representatives of their countries for pragmatic reasons doesn't change that.
        10y ago
  - pinaceae 10y ago
    The occupying Red Army did not force anyone? People were DYING trying to get away from this shit and here you are, spouting this nonsense. Humans were shot trying to cross over a wall built in the middle of Europe. The Red Army PURGED the Polish elite, starting in Katyn. What the fuck.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    >I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads There were other representatives that wouldn't have signed, but they had literally had guns to their heads, and trigger pulled. Soviet occupation of much of Europe was by force, lots of it. It involved disappearances and executions of dissenters and even potential dissenters. This was done by USSR in perfect harmony and agreement with Nazi Germany. It really, really was against the will of Central European nations, such as the Poles. Not everyone there, of course; you can always find honest ideological support, willful lackeys and stupid fellow travelers. But these countries stayed under Soviet influence very much due to literally having guns to the heads of people. Katyn, for instance.
- hewhowhineth 10y ago
  We also seem to forget that most of those countries were part of Hitler's forces that attacked the Soviet Union a few years before that. Small example would be Hungary that sent ~500,000 soldiers to the eastern front. That invasion resulted in ~5 million civilians being killed, let's ignore the military casualties and general destruction. Every country/nation did all kinds of nasty shit, it's just a matter of how far back you want to look. EDIT: typo
  - pinaceae 10y ago
    Poland? Czechoslovakia? What the fuck is going on here at HN? Is this Bizarro World?
    - hewhowhineth 10y ago
      Read again: most of those countries. Now make a list of countries that had its forces on the eastern front, and the list of the ones that didn't. Still Bizarro World? Not that facts matter to you, but Poland attacked Soviets in 1920. Slovakia (Tiso regime) joined Hitler's forces on eastern front. They also attacked Poland and had a war with Hungary, both in 1939. But given your attitude I'm pretty sure there won't be any meaningful discussion so I'll leave it at that.
      - pinaceae 10y ago
        and before that Russia occupied Poland together with Prussia and Austria, wiping out Polish statehood altogether for 123 years. Russification, heard of it? the 1920 war was a result of that, Poles trying to reclaim territories in Ukraine - using the chaos of the Russian Revolution. but yeah, totally attacking Russia. but all of that justifies the occupation by the Red Army from 1945 till 1989. yup.

aaronchall 10y ago

> Russia occupied half of Europe, against the will of the countries occupied, for nearly 50 years. Good point. Seems like we forget this.

guard-of-terra 10y ago
How would you define "against their will"? I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads (however I'm aware about Hungary'56 and Chezhoslovakia'68) This isn't a fair argument. Imagine, tomorrow USA fails, a lot of its former allies get current marginal opposition in power. They'll line up telling how USA occupied them, did this and that against their will. And they'll be partially right. Partially wrong. The boundaries in Europe after WWII were determined by WWII. That's how it went.
- vetinari 10y ago
  To expand on your point: It wasn't Russia who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968. It was entire Warsaw pact. Or, almost entire. There was one country, that didn't take part: Romania. Out of the entire Warsaw pact only Ceaușescu's Romania had the backbone to not invade. Others, like GDR, Poland, Hungary, took their part voluntarily. (That's nothing new: Poland and Hungary attacked the rump Czechoslovakia in 1938 too. That's just expanding your second paragraph). There is yet another twist - even for USSR, it wasn't Russia itself. It was USSR, which was comprised of many more countries at the time. The units that were in Czechoslovakia were Ukrainians. And before there are arguments, that they were commanded from Moscow, the head honcho at the time was Brezhnev, from Ukraine.
  - pinaceae 10y ago
    who gave the orders? who was in charge? was it the kremlin or the marsians?
- woodandsteel 10y ago
  Except those were all non-democratic puppet governments the Soviet Union had installed after WWII. Or maybe you believe communism is a form of democracy?
  - vetinari 10y ago
    I was born in the Czechoslovakia. The thing is, that communists in 1948 really did win the elections. The people at the time really wanted communism. Just like in 1989 they wanted change for capitalism. Who knows, maybe in another 10-20-30 years they will want a change again. Should it be accompanied with a narrative, that the fall of Iron Curtain was a well orchestrated putsch to rob their countries?
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      >The thing is, that communists in 1948 really did win the elections. Elections where the population was presented with a single list and where the police force and officials overseeing the election had been purged - both the army and police force were under Soviet-influenced Communist control. The only non-Communist minister, Jan Masaryk, was found defenestrated outside his office. (This was declared a suicide, but in 2004 Soviet archives indeed confirmed that he'd been thrown out of his window). In simpler terms, this is called coup d'état. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d%27%C3...
- fauigerzigerk 10y ago
  >I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads That's because these "representatives" were not representing the people of their countries. They were representing the interests of the USSR in those countries. I'll give you an example of what it looks like when something does not happen against the will of a country. In the 1960s, at the hight of the cold war, France asked NATO to leave its country and withdrew its own troups from NATO command. NATO left, and that was it.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    They were certainly influenced to unhealthy degree, but those were still national countries represented by people of their nations. I imagine Soviets just took leading Polish/Hungarian/etc communist parties and made them the government. They still were Poles/Hungarians/etc. In 1968, Albania withdrew from Warsaw pact. And that was it.
    - fauigerzigerk 10y ago
      The people of those countries were never asked who they wanted to represent them. So there were no representatives.
      - guard-of-terra 10y ago
        So you think that any non-democratic country is totally irresponsible for what happens inside? This in the world where China and Saudi Arabia are top players.
        fauigerzigerk 10y ago
        I would not characterise the actions of undemocratic regimes as representing the "will of the country". The fact that we accept undemocratic regimes as legal representatives of their countries for pragmatic reasons doesn't change that.
        10y ago
- pinaceae 10y ago
  The occupying Red Army did not force anyone? People were DYING trying to get away from this shit and here you are, spouting this nonsense. Humans were shot trying to cross over a wall built in the middle of Europe. The Red Army PURGED the Polish elite, starting in Katyn. What the fuck.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  >I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads There were other representatives that wouldn't have signed, but they had literally had guns to their heads, and trigger pulled. Soviet occupation of much of Europe was by force, lots of it. It involved disappearances and executions of dissenters and even potential dissenters. This was done by USSR in perfect harmony and agreement with Nazi Germany. It really, really was against the will of Central European nations, such as the Poles. Not everyone there, of course; you can always find honest ideological support, willful lackeys and stupid fellow travelers. But these countries stayed under Soviet influence very much due to literally having guns to the heads of people. Katyn, for instance.
hewhowhineth 10y ago
We also seem to forget that most of those countries were part of Hitler's forces that attacked the Soviet Union a few years before that. Small example would be Hungary that sent ~500,000 soldiers to the eastern front. That invasion resulted in ~5 million civilians being killed, let's ignore the military casualties and general destruction. Every country/nation did all kinds of nasty shit, it's just a matter of how far back you want to look. EDIT: typo
- pinaceae 10y ago
  Poland? Czechoslovakia? What the fuck is going on here at HN? Is this Bizarro World?
  - hewhowhineth 10y ago
    Read again: most of those countries. Now make a list of countries that had its forces on the eastern front, and the list of the ones that didn't. Still Bizarro World? Not that facts matter to you, but Poland attacked Soviets in 1920. Slovakia (Tiso regime) joined Hitler's forces on eastern front. They also attacked Poland and had a war with Hungary, both in 1939. But given your attitude I'm pretty sure there won't be any meaningful discussion so I'll leave it at that.
    - pinaceae 10y ago
      and before that Russia occupied Poland together with Prussia and Austria, wiping out Polish statehood altogether for 123 years. Russification, heard of it? the 1920 war was a result of that, Poles trying to reclaim territories in Ukraine - using the chaos of the Russian Revolution. but yeah, totally attacking Russia. but all of that justifies the occupation by the Red Army from 1945 till 1989. yup.