7 ms·

Eric Holder says Edward Snowden performed a 'public service'

233 points by abhi3 10y ago

woodman 10y ago
What a load of BS. He praises him for "raising the debate", but condemns him for "...the way he did it -- was inappropriate and illegal..." then going on to invite him to "Go to trial, try to cut a deal." The issue has been brought up many times, with no positive change, because there was no massive dump of incredibly embarrassing evidence. All those hoping for some kind of Obama surprise turn around in the unprecedented level of whistleblower prosecution: you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
- w3ightl355 10y ago
  "...the way he did it -- was inappropriate and illegal..." What the government was doing (and still is) is inappropriate and illegal. Can't Holder understand or accept the fact that this is why Snowden chose the option that he did? Of course, were matters of law are concerned, I'm not sure Holder is a good source - he after all, let the biggest heist in the civilized world go without consequence to those involved.
internaut 10y ago
I'm wondering if they're getting ready to pardon him, perhaps with a provision like spending 10 years under house arrest or losing his citizenship. I don't think this could happen under Clinton but Obama might issue a last minute pardon as they tend to do when they leave office. Failing that it is possible Trump might do it as a sign of pragmaticism. He's the only one who could sell it to his supporters, the same might be true of Obama for his people. Now that time has passed both factions agree it was all inevitable, case of when and not if. That leaves Snowden hanging there as an awkward reminder.
- mikeyouse 10y ago
  > Failing that it is possible Trump might do it as a sign of pragmaticism. He's the only one who could sell it to his supporters, the same might be true of Obama for his people. Donald Trump would literally hang Snowden: “I think Snowden is a terrible threat, I think he’s a terrible traitor, and you know what we used to do in the good old days when we were a strong country — you know what we used to do to traitors, right?” Trump said, Politico reported.
  - mtgx 10y ago
    Donald Trump says a lot of things on which he doesn't follow through.
    - CamperBob2 10y ago
      Throughout history, it's really surprising how many of the great conspiracies and atrocities have been telegraphed clearly -- if not published openly -- by their perpetrators, far in advance of the actual deeds. No one who read Mein Kampf could have expressed surprise at Hitler's subsequent actions, for instance, and the same is true for other documents up to and including the neoconservatives' PNAC Manifesto. So don't say you weren't warned if Trump actually does follow through on some of this stuff. There's no real downside to taking him at his word.
    - mikeyouse 10y ago
      I'm sure that's reassuring to those who he's promised to kill.. It wasn't a one-off comment though, he reiterated his Snowden beliefs a few months ago: “When you just asked the question about Snowden, I will tell you right from the beginning, I said he was a spy and we should get him back,” Trump said. “And if Russia respected our country, they would have sent him back immediately, but he was a spy. It didn't take me a long time to figure that one out.” Trump thinks he's a Russian spy who should be hanged for treason.
      - o0-0o 10y ago
        You think he's not a spy?
        CameronBanga 10y ago
        Serious question. Why do you think he is one? What that he's done is in anyway consistent with the work of a spy?
        anonbanker 10y ago
- newjersey 10y ago
  > I'm wondering if they're getting ready to pardon him, perhaps with a provision like spending 10 years under house arrest or losing his citizenship. I don't think this could happen under Clinton but Obama might issue a last minute pardon as they tend to do when they leave office. Failing that it is possible Trump might do it as a sign of pragmaticism. He's the only one who could sell it to his supporters, the same might be true of Obama for his people. > Now that time has passed both factions agree it was all inevitable, case of when and not if. That leaves Snowden hanging there as an awkward reminder. I hope you're right. I am currently thinking about a decidedly unscientific research where they showed "The Colbert Report" to very conservative people (college students? I don't remember the specifics) who had never seen the show before and they thought the persona was real. This is in context with people like the host of NPR's Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me coming on air to say that he might have been living inside a bubble because we got blindsided by Trump's ascendancy. This is unrelated but I am afraid I might be projecting my own positions and opinions on the candidates. Things like: "Of course, Trump never said bar citizens from entry based on religion". and "Of course, Bernie Sanders understands the issue of wage gap is more nuanced than can be explained in 140 characters https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/736649251799732224 https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/736649251799732224 "
  - internaut 10y ago
    People have lived in bubbles forever but now with the Net they're encountering oppositional thoughts directly without filtering. This conflict further deepens already existing society division through a kind of memetic assortative mating.
- monocasa 10y ago
  Won't happen. Even as a Senator, Obama was signaling his support of the NSA in his vote in 2008 FISA amendments bill which granted retroactive immunity to telecoms when complying with illegal and unconstitutional search requests from the government. If Obama is secretly on the side of whistleblowers, it's one of the best kept secrets in the world.
d33 10y ago
The thing is that he should be rewarded for the public service, not punished.
meursault334 10y ago
I hope Obama does something to resolve both the Snowden situation and get Chelsea Manning out of prison before he leaves office. I can't see what the downside is to him of doing the right thing at this point.
- athathra 10y ago
  Sometimes you have to be careful not to get JFK'ed.
- dandare 10y ago
  What makes you think he is up for the right thing? Serious question.
  - mwfunk 10y ago
    Everyone wants to do the right thing, they just all have different ideas about what the right thing is. There's always hope that people will come around. Not much, but it's all we've got. Every time someone decides that someone they disagree with isn't trying to do the right thing (at least according to their own judgement), a kitten dies. Also, every time a public official does change their mind about something but gets punished for it by being accused of "flip-flopping", 2 kittens die. Those two things plus money in politics are my personal top 3 reasons for why we can't have nice things (and/or kittens) in US politics.
    - dTal 10y ago
      If you cannot come up with stronger arguments than "a kitten dies", you are succumbing to the same "my way is right" mentality that you are criticizing.
- gogopuppygogo 10y ago
  Manning isn't the same as Snowden. Lumping them together is a disservice to what Snowden did. Manning volunteered for the military and gave up some rights as a result. He then distributed data that put lives in danger because he didn't think to clean it up. Snowden was a private citizen, one who felt his country was not going down the right path. He took time to hatch a plan and release data that he believed wouldn't risk the lives of others. Snowden deserves a medal not prison.
droithomme 10y ago
"I think there has to be a consequence for what he has done."" I agree with Holder on this. Snowden should get a ticker tape parade, the Congressional Medal of Freedom, and the Nobel Peace Prize.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  Babylon 5, S4E21 "Rising Star" President Susanna Luchenko: [to Sheridan after his forces free Earth] Half of Earth Force wants to give you a kiss on the cheek and the Medal of Honor. The other half wants you taken out and shot. As a politician you learn how to compromise - which by all rights means I should give you the Medal of Honor then have you shot.
- msie 10y ago
  So, when is HN going to introduce "reactions" so I can post a smiley face and clapping hands to this comment?
- lewisl9029 10y ago
  I also agree with this. He should get all that, in addition to a proper trial in court for some of his misconducts, because while I do believe he performed a great public service that sparked a hugely beneficial conversation regarding privacy and government secrecy, he also neglected one of his basic responsibilities as a whistleblower by offloading all the documents he could get his hands on to the press in their original forms without even reading all of them [1], instead of exercising his own discretion and leaking only those documents that he had personally confirmed was of public interest, and performing his own due diligence by redacting any irrelevant sensitive information in those documents to the best of his abilities. While I can sympathize with the fact that he was probably under a tremendous amount of stress at the time, that probably led to this unfortunate decision, a whistleblower like Snowden simply shouldn't have placed so much blind trust in the media. Letting this slide without any consequences would set a dangerous precedent, regardless of how well the ends justified the means in this case. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/06/edward-snowden-john-oliver-last-week-tonight-nsa-leaked-documents http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/06/edward-snowde...
mmaunder 10y ago
I think this is a trial balloon and Holder is acting as a stalking horse for the Obama administration. They're setting up to pardon him if the public approves.
- liquidise 10y ago
  That would be wonderful, but i fear it won't come to pass. The Whitehouse won't, and frankly can't. They have to consider how many other NSA employees hold similar opinions and will consider going public with their information if their administration has anything but a hardline response to the Snowden case.
- Fede_V 10y ago
  I would really like for this to be the case, but I kind of doubt it. Let's wait and see.
  - mmaunder 10y ago
    It would be a process and would involve him returning for something resembling a trial but my guess is he could do a lot of preliminary negotiation if the White House was open to it which would involve him serving no time and ending up a hero. This is the last official statement AFAIK and the language is surprisingly sanguine. http://time.com/3974713/white-house-edward-snowden-petition/ http://time.com/3974713/white-house-edward-snowden-petition/
- woodman 10y ago
  More prosecutions under the Espionage Act than every prior administration combined... I don't see a pardon in the cards. Also, a trial balloon wouldn't be Holder calling for a trial - that has been said many times by many politicians for a long time.
  - arcticfox 10y ago
    How many of those were legitimate though? Except for a very small handful of high profile cases, I have absolutely no idea about the rest of them so I'm genuinely curious.
dandare 10y ago
It is unbelievable how (self)censored the mainstream media/politics discussion is. Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record, whistleblowers before Snowden were jailed for blowing the whistle and there was absolutely no chance he could reveal/fix any illegal wrongdoing by the government via the official whistleblowers channels. He did not run away and ruin his sweet life for the lulz, there was clearly no other way. Why is this argument not immediately raised every time some clown uses the "he broke the law, he has to face the music" argument?
- vermontdevil 10y ago
  Petraeus too. Now he's "recovered" and will be a big player in the next administration
  - qrendel 10y ago
    And let's not forget James Clapper.
  - sgnelson 10y ago
    You mean Betrayus, who gave away secrets for sex (and in part so that he would look better in his "biography," and most likely turn that into a permanent political career) and received a slap on the wrist.
- tdkl 10y ago
  > Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record You forgot the war liars/criminals Bush, Rice and Powell.
  - blackguardx 10y ago
    I was under the impression that Powell was a man of integrity and really resented being used by the Bush administration to provide justification for the war. I thought he was just regurgitating the lies told to him. Edit: Am I being downvoted for expressing my knowledge of the situation? If you think I am wrong, say so. Try to educate me. Downvoting for disagreeing does nothing. When he testified about yellowcake uranium, I thought he believed the reports to be true.
_shed 10y ago
What a bunch of hypocrites! Meanwhile some of the people who sent us to Iraq are getting medals. Disgusting.
asimpletune 10y ago
The timing of this statement from Holder is convenient, considering the VICE HBO special that aired last night about Snowden.
jwarren116 10y ago
I find Holder's remarks to be ironic. After Operation Fast and Furious [0], I would be tempted to say there's more blood on Holder's hands than on Snowden's hands. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious
- dandare 10y ago
  This is outrageous. Thanks for the link.
kilo9 10y ago
Snowden is a Hero. And there are few of those around.
jackson_1 10y ago
They're just baiting him into returning to the US. You can be assured he will be shipped off to a supermax (probably for life) the moment he steps foot in the country. It's one law for the Clintons and another one for citizens without influential friends...
alexandercrohde 10y ago
What a confusing remark. He says that both it is a "public service" "but still must pay a penalty." I don't understand what that means, why should one pay a penalty for a public service? I also think this line "America's interest" is thrown around a lot. Are we talking the interest of Americans? Or interests of the American government? It seems more and more now the two are at odds with each other...
- _petronius 10y ago
  'The state is the name of the coldest of all cold monstrosities. It lies coldly, too; the lie that creeps out of its mouth is this: "I, the state, am the people."' (Nietzsche) Politics likes to treat the notion of the state as interchangeable with its people, and although I don't think the US is alone in this, it certainly seems to have made an art out of it at times.
- ljw1001 10y ago
  You thought "no good deed goes unpunished" was just a saying? :)
0xcde4c3db 10y ago
Sometimes I wonder if keeping the Snowden hero/traitor debate in the media is some kind of psyop to keep us from actually talking about the stuff that he revealed.
pessimizer 10y ago
Holder attempts to both have cake, and eat it.

233 points by abhi3 10y ago

What a load of BS. He praises him for "raising the debate", but condemns him for "...the way he did it -- was inappropriate and illegal..." then going on to invite him to "Go to trial, try to cut a deal." The issue has been brought up many times, with no positive change, because there was no massive dump of incredibly embarrassing evidence. All those hoping for some kind of Obama surprise turn around in the unprecedented level of whistleblower prosecution: you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

w3ightl355 10y ago
"...the way he did it -- was inappropriate and illegal..." What the government was doing (and still is) is inappropriate and illegal. Can't Holder understand or accept the fact that this is why Snowden chose the option that he did? Of course, were matters of law are concerned, I'm not sure Holder is a good source - he after all, let the biggest heist in the civilized world go without consequence to those involved.

internaut 10y ago

I'm wondering if they're getting ready to pardon him, perhaps with a provision like spending 10 years under house arrest or losing his citizenship. I don't think this could happen under Clinton but Obama might issue a last minute pardon as they tend to do when they leave office. Failing that it is possible Trump might do it as a sign of pragmaticism. He's the only one who could sell it to his supporters, the same might be true of Obama for his people. Now that time has passed both factions agree it was all inevitable, case of when and not if. That leaves Snowden hanging there as an awkward reminder.

mikeyouse 10y ago
> Failing that it is possible Trump might do it as a sign of pragmaticism. He's the only one who could sell it to his supporters, the same might be true of Obama for his people. Donald Trump would literally hang Snowden: “I think Snowden is a terrible threat, I think he’s a terrible traitor, and you know what we used to do in the good old days when we were a strong country — you know what we used to do to traitors, right?” Trump said, Politico reported.
- mtgx 10y ago
  Donald Trump says a lot of things on which he doesn't follow through.
  - CamperBob2 10y ago
    Throughout history, it's really surprising how many of the great conspiracies and atrocities have been telegraphed clearly -- if not published openly -- by their perpetrators, far in advance of the actual deeds. No one who read Mein Kampf could have expressed surprise at Hitler's subsequent actions, for instance, and the same is true for other documents up to and including the neoconservatives' PNAC Manifesto. So don't say you weren't warned if Trump actually does follow through on some of this stuff. There's no real downside to taking him at his word.
  - mikeyouse 10y ago
    I'm sure that's reassuring to those who he's promised to kill.. It wasn't a one-off comment though, he reiterated his Snowden beliefs a few months ago: “When you just asked the question about Snowden, I will tell you right from the beginning, I said he was a spy and we should get him back,” Trump said. “And if Russia respected our country, they would have sent him back immediately, but he was a spy. It didn't take me a long time to figure that one out.” Trump thinks he's a Russian spy who should be hanged for treason.
    - o0-0o 10y ago
      You think he's not a spy?
      - CameronBanga 10y ago
        Serious question. Why do you think he is one? What that he's done is in anyway consistent with the work of a spy?
        anonbanker 10y ago
newjersey 10y ago
> I'm wondering if they're getting ready to pardon him, perhaps with a provision like spending 10 years under house arrest or losing his citizenship. I don't think this could happen under Clinton but Obama might issue a last minute pardon as they tend to do when they leave office. Failing that it is possible Trump might do it as a sign of pragmaticism. He's the only one who could sell it to his supporters, the same might be true of Obama for his people. > Now that time has passed both factions agree it was all inevitable, case of when and not if. That leaves Snowden hanging there as an awkward reminder. I hope you're right. I am currently thinking about a decidedly unscientific research where they showed "The Colbert Report" to very conservative people (college students? I don't remember the specifics) who had never seen the show before and they thought the persona was real. This is in context with people like the host of NPR's Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me coming on air to say that he might have been living inside a bubble because we got blindsided by Trump's ascendancy. This is unrelated but I am afraid I might be projecting my own positions and opinions on the candidates. Things like: "Of course, Trump never said bar citizens from entry based on religion". and "Of course, Bernie Sanders understands the issue of wage gap is more nuanced than can be explained in 140 characters https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/736649251799732224 https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/736649251799732224 "
- internaut 10y ago
  People have lived in bubbles forever but now with the Net they're encountering oppositional thoughts directly without filtering. This conflict further deepens already existing society division through a kind of memetic assortative mating.
monocasa 10y ago
Won't happen. Even as a Senator, Obama was signaling his support of the NSA in his vote in 2008 FISA amendments bill which granted retroactive immunity to telecoms when complying with illegal and unconstitutional search requests from the government. If Obama is secretly on the side of whistleblowers, it's one of the best kept secrets in the world.

d33 10y ago

The thing is that he should be rewarded for the public service, not punished.

meursault334 10y ago

I hope Obama does something to resolve both the Snowden situation and get Chelsea Manning out of prison before he leaves office. I can't see what the downside is to him of doing the right thing at this point.

athathra 10y ago
Sometimes you have to be careful not to get JFK'ed.
dandare 10y ago
What makes you think he is up for the right thing? Serious question.
- mwfunk 10y ago
  Everyone wants to do the right thing, they just all have different ideas about what the right thing is. There's always hope that people will come around. Not much, but it's all we've got. Every time someone decides that someone they disagree with isn't trying to do the right thing (at least according to their own judgement), a kitten dies. Also, every time a public official does change their mind about something but gets punished for it by being accused of "flip-flopping", 2 kittens die. Those two things plus money in politics are my personal top 3 reasons for why we can't have nice things (and/or kittens) in US politics.
  - dTal 10y ago
    If you cannot come up with stronger arguments than "a kitten dies", you are succumbing to the same "my way is right" mentality that you are criticizing.
gogopuppygogo 10y ago
Manning isn't the same as Snowden. Lumping them together is a disservice to what Snowden did. Manning volunteered for the military and gave up some rights as a result. He then distributed data that put lives in danger because he didn't think to clean it up. Snowden was a private citizen, one who felt his country was not going down the right path. He took time to hatch a plan and release data that he believed wouldn't risk the lives of others. Snowden deserves a medal not prison.

droithomme 10y ago

"I think there has to be a consequence for what he has done."" I agree with Holder on this. Snowden should get a ticker tape parade, the Congressional Medal of Freedom, and the Nobel Peace Prize.

pdkl95 10y ago
Babylon 5, S4E21 "Rising Star" President Susanna Luchenko: [to Sheridan after his forces free Earth] Half of Earth Force wants to give you a kiss on the cheek and the Medal of Honor. The other half wants you taken out and shot. As a politician you learn how to compromise - which by all rights means I should give you the Medal of Honor then have you shot.
msie 10y ago
So, when is HN going to introduce "reactions" so I can post a smiley face and clapping hands to this comment?
lewisl9029 10y ago
I also agree with this. He should get all that, in addition to a proper trial in court for some of his misconducts, because while I do believe he performed a great public service that sparked a hugely beneficial conversation regarding privacy and government secrecy, he also neglected one of his basic responsibilities as a whistleblower by offloading all the documents he could get his hands on to the press in their original forms without even reading all of them [1], instead of exercising his own discretion and leaking only those documents that he had personally confirmed was of public interest, and performing his own due diligence by redacting any irrelevant sensitive information in those documents to the best of his abilities. While I can sympathize with the fact that he was probably under a tremendous amount of stress at the time, that probably led to this unfortunate decision, a whistleblower like Snowden simply shouldn't have placed so much blind trust in the media. Letting this slide without any consequences would set a dangerous precedent, regardless of how well the ends justified the means in this case. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/06/edward-snowden-john-oliver-last-week-tonight-nsa-leaked-documents http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/06/edward-snowde...

mmaunder 10y ago

I think this is a trial balloon and Holder is acting as a stalking horse for the Obama administration. They're setting up to pardon him if the public approves.

liquidise 10y ago
That would be wonderful, but i fear it won't come to pass. The Whitehouse won't, and frankly can't. They have to consider how many other NSA employees hold similar opinions and will consider going public with their information if their administration has anything but a hardline response to the Snowden case.
Fede_V 10y ago
I would really like for this to be the case, but I kind of doubt it. Let's wait and see.
- mmaunder 10y ago
  It would be a process and would involve him returning for something resembling a trial but my guess is he could do a lot of preliminary negotiation if the White House was open to it which would involve him serving no time and ending up a hero. This is the last official statement AFAIK and the language is surprisingly sanguine. http://time.com/3974713/white-house-edward-snowden-petition/ http://time.com/3974713/white-house-edward-snowden-petition/
woodman 10y ago
More prosecutions under the Espionage Act than every prior administration combined... I don't see a pardon in the cards. Also, a trial balloon wouldn't be Holder calling for a trial - that has been said many times by many politicians for a long time.
- arcticfox 10y ago
  How many of those were legitimate though? Except for a very small handful of high profile cases, I have absolutely no idea about the rest of them so I'm genuinely curious.

dandare 10y ago

It is unbelievable how (self)censored the mainstream media/politics discussion is. Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record, whistleblowers before Snowden were jailed for blowing the whistle and there was absolutely no chance he could reveal/fix any illegal wrongdoing by the government via the official whistleblowers channels. He did not run away and ruin his sweet life for the lulz, there was clearly no other way. Why is this argument not immediately raised every time some clown uses the "he broke the law, he has to face the music" argument?

vermontdevil 10y ago
Petraeus too. Now he's "recovered" and will be a big player in the next administration
- qrendel 10y ago
  And let's not forget James Clapper.
- sgnelson 10y ago
  You mean Betrayus, who gave away secrets for sex (and in part so that he would look better in his "biography," and most likely turn that into a permanent political career) and received a slap on the wrist.
tdkl 10y ago
> Keith Alexander lied to the congress on record You forgot the war liars/criminals Bush, Rice and Powell.
- blackguardx 10y ago
  I was under the impression that Powell was a man of integrity and really resented being used by the Bush administration to provide justification for the war. I thought he was just regurgitating the lies told to him. Edit: Am I being downvoted for expressing my knowledge of the situation? If you think I am wrong, say so. Try to educate me. Downvoting for disagreeing does nothing. When he testified about yellowcake uranium, I thought he believed the reports to be true.

_shed 10y ago

What a bunch of hypocrites! Meanwhile some of the people who sent us to Iraq are getting medals. Disgusting.

asimpletune 10y ago

The timing of this statement from Holder is convenient, considering the VICE HBO special that aired last night about Snowden.

jwarren116 10y ago

I find Holder's remarks to be ironic. After Operation Fast and Furious [0], I would be tempted to say there's more blood on Holder's hands than on Snowden's hands. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious

dandare 10y ago
This is outrageous. Thanks for the link.

kilo9 10y ago

Snowden is a Hero. And there are few of those around.

jackson_1 10y ago

They're just baiting him into returning to the US. You can be assured he will be shipped off to a supermax (probably for life) the moment he steps foot in the country. It's one law for the Clintons and another one for citizens without influential friends...

alexandercrohde 10y ago

What a confusing remark. He says that both it is a "public service" "but still must pay a penalty." I don't understand what that means, why should one pay a penalty for a public service? I also think this line "America's interest" is thrown around a lot. Are we talking the interest of Americans? Or interests of the American government? It seems more and more now the two are at odds with each other...

_petronius 10y ago
'The state is the name of the coldest of all cold monstrosities. It lies coldly, too; the lie that creeps out of its mouth is this: "I, the state, am the people."' (Nietzsche) Politics likes to treat the notion of the state as interchangeable with its people, and although I don't think the US is alone in this, it certainly seems to have made an art out of it at times.
ljw1001 10y ago
You thought "no good deed goes unpunished" was just a saying? :)

0xcde4c3db 10y ago

Sometimes I wonder if keeping the Snowden hero/traitor debate in the media is some kind of psyop to keep us from actually talking about the stuff that he revealed.

pessimizer 10y ago

Holder attempts to both have cake, and eat it.