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Do other HN readers find themselves on the receiving end of ridicule by their fam & friends for taking this privacy stuff seriously? I'm constantly being told I

Do other HN readers find themselves on the receiving end of ridicule by their fam & friends for taking this privacy stuff seriously? I'm constantly being told I'm unreasonably worried, borderline tin-hat wearing paranoid, for being concerned by the surveillance capabilities built into our modern consumer electronics which are available to governments and business alike. But if someone my parents know have their identity stolen by stealing credit card bills and applications from their mailbox and then find themselves on the hook for $30,000 in fraudulent charges, well then it's all my parents talk about for the next 2 days. That I understand the technology and they do not, seems to keep them from taking the issue seriously.

mtgx 10y ago
In a way, it's for the same reason people don't think EVs or solar power will dominate. They look too much at what is currently happening or has happened in the (recent) past, and think that's how things will always be. The HN types tend to be more informed about what's currently possible with technology and have a better understanding of where this can lead to in the future. "Normal" people don't have that going for them, so for them it's "strange" that you would say such things.
- rdiddly 10y ago
  Not a good example, because the actual barriers to EVs and solar power are that they depend too _much_ on what's happening now, i.e. existing fossil-fuel-powered industrial infrastructure.
jon_richards 10y ago
Yup. I told some people about Facebook's silent background audio and the CIA's fake phone shutdowns. I felt like I was telling them about government mind control programs.
- nyolfen 10y ago
  >CIA's fake phone shutdowns Can you expand on this?
  - jon_richards 10y ago
    They can send a signal to your phone telling it to fake any attempted shutdowns so that they can still use it as a bug.
ottertown 10y ago
For my family, definitely yes. Though it may just be that non-technical people are going to take longer to understand the gravity of technical problems, and I think that's compounded by most people's latent contempt for software / IT people. My family initially decided Edward Snowden was a traitor and coward for 'fleeing' to Russia. They threw every stale argument at me, from "I have nothing to hide" to "everyone is spying on everyone, what's the big deal?" They've started to backtrack from these positions. I'm not sure why or how, but I suspect they just needed people they trust (e.g. some columnist in the NY Times) to tell them they're wrong.
pascalmemories 10y ago
Yup. I actively work in security consultancy. Everyone outside of tech thinks and treats me like some sort of tinfoil hat salesperson. I get sent all sorts of crazy conspiracy theory links because "that's the stuff you're really into." on a daily basis. Even when people read about Snowden, they just don't get it. This past weekend, he came up and the response was, yeah, but Snowden was saying the spying is only on terrorists, they don't collect any information on people who are not terrorists because that would be way more information than they want. Trying to explain that is the opposite of what Snowden was saying was pointless and futile because it just made me sound like the crazy one. The NSA must be rolling around laughing as they listen in to peoples naive conversations about Snowden. edit: oops, removed link added on the wrong posting. Sorry. And a typo. Sorry again.
- tome 10y ago
  > but Snowden was saying the spying is only on terrorists Yet another reason Snowden shouldn't have published anything unrelated to domestic spying.
  - forgotmysn 10y ago
    Can you explain your thinking? That makes absolutely no sense to me
    - tome 10y ago
      Thanks for asking. I confess my comment was a vent rather than a reasoned argument. I've been annoyed with Snowden's leaks ever since they came out. I believe leaks about domestic spying on the American people are thoroughly justified (and utterly necessary), and I believe leaks about spying on foreign goverments and foreign nationals are thoroughly unjustified (and frankly, verging on traitorous). pascalmemories seems to be saying that the issue of spying on foreign nationals ("terroists") has completely overshadowed the issue of domestic spying in the popular consciousness to the extent that his associates don't even realise that domestic spying is happening. This is yet another nail in my personal coffin for Snowden.
arca_vorago 10y ago
Sometimes yes, but luckily I have taken the time to understand the arguments so that I can rebut them and counter rebut their rebuttals. Almost everyone around now makes off the cuff jokes about my paranoia, but in serious discussion they mostly understand now. For me, as former military, I always try to bring it back to the Constitution and the rule of law, which tends to have more weight with most Americans than you might expect. Things like this have made me think though, that what I would like to see is a site that takes a controversial topic such as this, and just lays out all the evidence, arguments, counter argument, etc, along with citations and logical analysis to lower the barrier to entry in a way. Come to think of it, I get more pushback on HN than just about anywhere on these topics, which is extremely dissapointing. As a sysadmin, it's part of my job description to be paranoid. Hell, does anyone remember the Snowden file with the title, "we hunt sysadmins"!?
- lukeschlather 10y ago
  Unfortunately, it's not a website, and you can't presently see it, but I saw an exhibit by the Tactical Tech collective in Berlin called Nervous Systems. It was a really accessible discussion of these issues. It was also especially effective because much of it was more artistic and presented with less commentary, allowing the viewer/reader/listener to draw their own conclusions. If you know a space which can host them, and you can raise the cash, I'd recommend getting them to come to your locale and invite your friends. https://tacticaltech.org/projects/nervoussystems https://tacticaltech.org/projects/nervoussystems
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > site that takes a controversial topic such as this, and just lays out all the evidence I would also like that site. Recently I've been thinking about another way to educate people about these issues: a video game that simulates practical examples of data security and privacy. Interactive games offer different tools[1] to the storyteller, and I like the idea of letting people discover concepts on their own. Unfortunately, a project like this is way outside my area of expertise. /sigh/ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhrKPLDCyY&list=PLJA_jUddXvY4f8-eoY0mg7gzXoqhBYN6y&index=4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhrKPLDCyY&list=PLJA_jUddXv...
ccvannorman 10y ago
It's critical to understand that 9/10 of people simply don't want to believe. It's easier that way.
- walrus01 10y ago
  To quote the guy who goes turncloak in the first Matrix movie: "... And you know what I've realized? Ignorance is bliss."
alanwatts 10y ago
>We've arranged a global civilization in which the most crucial elements — transportation, communications, and all other industries; agriculture, medicine, education, entertainment, protecting the environment; and even the key democratic institution of voting, profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces. -Carl Sagan
- JustUhThought 10y ago
  Nice quote! Ty
slicktux 10y ago
I feel you; I talk about it quite a bit because it is of interest, and well it affects us all. I even tried to get my sister to read the book "Data and Goliath" by Peter Schneier and she only read about 5 pages book marked it and had it sitting for a month. . .it is futile; Once I got an unusual call about someone being in jail. . .etc etc. I was concerned it may be a friend; anyways the call did not go through and I was running a reverse lookup on the tel-#. Well, two buddies of mine were there with me and one of them remarked "yeah, aren't you like paranoid that the government is spying on you" I looked at him furiously because this person I call my buddy just made a stupid stupid comment. Stupid comment because he obviously misinterpreted my previous conversations about NSA spying into me being personally paranoid about government spying on me; it is not about government spying on me it is about government spying on the people! and most people are plain ignorant and careless! it is unfortunate! they need an 8th grade level NY-Times paper to tell them their news. . .yes that is an ad-hominin. “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence—it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action” (Washington 6)
- zacketysack2 10y ago
  So I've been thinking about this, and I think the main reason why non-technical people get flustered when talking about privacy and anonymity online is because they might feel guilty about doing nothing about it.
  - anubisresources 10y ago
    I've always thought it's more a matter of ignorance. Most infosec risks are fairly abstract and difficult to grasp for non-technical folks. Many don't understand why what they are doing is bad. I really think that the infosec needs to do a much better job educating the public.
  - astral303 10y ago
    Computers are incredibly complicated to use and full of stupid bullshit rules. The average person is barely staying above water trying to use computers and not get fucked (I.e. Losing their work due to a keyboard mispress), that it's very overwhelming to consider security and privacy on top.
kilroy123 10y ago
You're not alone. Everyone thinks I'm crazy and tells me this, "I have nothing to hide, why should I care?" It makes my blood boil.
nekopa 10y ago
I've found that recently, I've gotten people to understand the issues more by paraphrasing (what I think was Snowden's) the main point: The people doing this are not evil, nor do they have evil intentions. But they are setting up a turn-key system - and who knows who the next person in power will be. And relating it to the current situation vis a vis Donald Trump: Now, imagine Trump gets into power. He can quickly turn around and say "Find me all the people who do or say X so I can round them up and get them out of here!" Fill in X for whatever thing is innocuous now, but may not be under a future administration.
apeace 10y ago
I've come up with a response to this which seems to drive the point home. I simply say something along the lines of: You think I'm paranoid? You have nothing to hide? How about you give me all your passwords (Gmail, Facebook, your laptop, etc). I'll download everything about you, and I'll post it online for the world to see. Oh, you wouldn't want that to happen? Well that is the risk I am talking about. Governments can be hacked, too (and have been many times, recently). Hence if they have access to your data, all your data could potentially be leaked on the open internet. Government surveillance and hacking can affect everybody!
- tdkl 10y ago
  You or Glenn Greenwald ? :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSlowAhvUk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSlowAhvUk
- nekopa 10y ago
  This reminds me of an old piece of advice I heard along time ago: Never write down something you don't want to be read aloud in a court of law. I apply this to what I do online, and so far, it has treated me well.
  - whamlastxmas 10y ago
    Never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink.
- NEDM64 10y ago
  It's very easy, if that person say he/she doesn't have anything important on their phones, they have a GPS.
cloudjacker 10y ago
Actually I can mention the use of TOR in more and more casual conversations now "Just use TOR" "don't send an anonymous message to your ex on clearnet" etc
sliverstorm 10y ago
Is it all you talk about? That's why I see getting people ridiculed about things that are actually real concerns- it's practically all they talk about. I take privacy & security measures, but you wouldn't really know it, talking with me over a drink. Also, a fundamental beleif that everyone is out to get you (true or not), will turn most people off.
mistermann 10y ago
Just to play devil's advocate, or perhaps help you understand how these people think, consider illegal immigration. Many people, using the exact same logic as you, consider it to be a serious issue, whereas others would say such beliefs are baseless (to put it nicely) as any facts supporting any concern are "outliers".
- tsmffh 10y ago
  Essentially not thinking beyond stage one. (The self destruction of a welfare state and open borders, to use the immigration example)
  - mistermann 10y ago
    Correct, but how many people in this thread who are shocked and disappointed at the lack of concern regarding privacy, hypocritically do not support increased control of the southern border of the US? It's not a completely analogous comparison, but there are many similarities.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pbuzbee 10y ago
I feel like the problem is that people outside of tech don't have a sense of how much data is collected, and they also don't really see negative consequences of it. First, there aren't really any negative consequences to government surveillance. People don't regularly disappear in the middle of the night for a comment on a blog post, and there haven't been any major security leaks yet. This could easily change in the future of course, but so far it's easy to ignore. Second, there's no cool dashboard showing what info the NSA has on you. If individuals could see the scope of info stored on them, they would probably feel differently. For example, many people feel creeped out when they view Google's map of their location history. This is an opt-in choice and the map exists for your benefit, but it still makes people uncomfortable to see their lives so plainly visible on a screen.

mtgx 10y ago

In a way, it's for the same reason people don't think EVs or solar power will dominate. They look too much at what is currently happening or has happened in the (recent) past, and think that's how things will always be. The HN types tend to be more informed about what's currently possible with technology and have a better understanding of where this can lead to in the future. "Normal" people don't have that going for them, so for them it's "strange" that you would say such things.

rdiddly 10y ago
Not a good example, because the actual barriers to EVs and solar power are that they depend too _much_ on what's happening now, i.e. existing fossil-fuel-powered industrial infrastructure.

jon_richards 10y ago

Yup. I told some people about Facebook's silent background audio and the CIA's fake phone shutdowns. I felt like I was telling them about government mind control programs.

nyolfen 10y ago
>CIA's fake phone shutdowns Can you expand on this?
- jon_richards 10y ago
  They can send a signal to your phone telling it to fake any attempted shutdowns so that they can still use it as a bug.

ottertown 10y ago

For my family, definitely yes. Though it may just be that non-technical people are going to take longer to understand the gravity of technical problems, and I think that's compounded by most people's latent contempt for software / IT people. My family initially decided Edward Snowden was a traitor and coward for 'fleeing' to Russia. They threw every stale argument at me, from "I have nothing to hide" to "everyone is spying on everyone, what's the big deal?" They've started to backtrack from these positions. I'm not sure why or how, but I suspect they just needed people they trust (e.g. some columnist in the NY Times) to tell them they're wrong.

pascalmemories 10y ago

Yup. I actively work in security consultancy. Everyone outside of tech thinks and treats me like some sort of tinfoil hat salesperson. I get sent all sorts of crazy conspiracy theory links because "that's the stuff you're really into." on a daily basis. Even when people read about Snowden, they just don't get it. This past weekend, he came up and the response was, yeah, but Snowden was saying the spying is only on terrorists, they don't collect any information on people who are not terrorists because that would be way more information than they want. Trying to explain that is the opposite of what Snowden was saying was pointless and futile because it just made me sound like the crazy one. The NSA must be rolling around laughing as they listen in to peoples naive conversations about Snowden. edit: oops, removed link added on the wrong posting. Sorry. And a typo. Sorry again.

tome 10y ago
> but Snowden was saying the spying is only on terrorists Yet another reason Snowden shouldn't have published anything unrelated to domestic spying.
- forgotmysn 10y ago
  Can you explain your thinking? That makes absolutely no sense to me
  - tome 10y ago
    Thanks for asking. I confess my comment was a vent rather than a reasoned argument. I've been annoyed with Snowden's leaks ever since they came out. I believe leaks about domestic spying on the American people are thoroughly justified (and utterly necessary), and I believe leaks about spying on foreign goverments and foreign nationals are thoroughly unjustified (and frankly, verging on traitorous). pascalmemories seems to be saying that the issue of spying on foreign nationals ("terroists") has completely overshadowed the issue of domestic spying in the popular consciousness to the extent that his associates don't even realise that domestic spying is happening. This is yet another nail in my personal coffin for Snowden.

arca_vorago 10y ago

Sometimes yes, but luckily I have taken the time to understand the arguments so that I can rebut them and counter rebut their rebuttals. Almost everyone around now makes off the cuff jokes about my paranoia, but in serious discussion they mostly understand now. For me, as former military, I always try to bring it back to the Constitution and the rule of law, which tends to have more weight with most Americans than you might expect. Things like this have made me think though, that what I would like to see is a site that takes a controversial topic such as this, and just lays out all the evidence, arguments, counter argument, etc, along with citations and logical analysis to lower the barrier to entry in a way. Come to think of it, I get more pushback on HN than just about anywhere on these topics, which is extremely dissapointing. As a sysadmin, it's part of my job description to be paranoid. Hell, does anyone remember the Snowden file with the title, "we hunt sysadmins"!?

lukeschlather 10y ago
Unfortunately, it's not a website, and you can't presently see it, but I saw an exhibit by the Tactical Tech collective in Berlin called Nervous Systems. It was a really accessible discussion of these issues. It was also especially effective because much of it was more artistic and presented with less commentary, allowing the viewer/reader/listener to draw their own conclusions. If you know a space which can host them, and you can raise the cash, I'd recommend getting them to come to your locale and invite your friends. https://tacticaltech.org/projects/nervoussystems https://tacticaltech.org/projects/nervoussystems
pdkl95 10y ago
> site that takes a controversial topic such as this, and just lays out all the evidence I would also like that site. Recently I've been thinking about another way to educate people about these issues: a video game that simulates practical examples of data security and privacy. Interactive games offer different tools[1] to the storyteller, and I like the idea of letting people discover concepts on their own. Unfortunately, a project like this is way outside my area of expertise. /sigh/ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhrKPLDCyY&list=PLJA_jUddXvY4f8-eoY0mg7gzXoqhBYN6y&index=4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyhrKPLDCyY&list=PLJA_jUddXv...

ccvannorman 10y ago

It's critical to understand that 9/10 of people simply don't want to believe. It's easier that way.

walrus01 10y ago
To quote the guy who goes turncloak in the first Matrix movie: "... And you know what I've realized? Ignorance is bliss."

alanwatts 10y ago

>We've arranged a global civilization in which the most crucial elements — transportation, communications, and all other industries; agriculture, medicine, education, entertainment, protecting the environment; and even the key democratic institution of voting, profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces. -Carl Sagan

JustUhThought 10y ago
Nice quote! Ty

slicktux 10y ago

I feel you; I talk about it quite a bit because it is of interest, and well it affects us all. I even tried to get my sister to read the book "Data and Goliath" by Peter Schneier and she only read about 5 pages book marked it and had it sitting for a month. . .it is futile; Once I got an unusual call about someone being in jail. . .etc etc. I was concerned it may be a friend; anyways the call did not go through and I was running a reverse lookup on the tel-#. Well, two buddies of mine were there with me and one of them remarked "yeah, aren't you like paranoid that the government is spying on you" I looked at him furiously because this person I call my buddy just made a stupid stupid comment. Stupid comment because he obviously misinterpreted my previous conversations about NSA spying into me being personally paranoid about government spying on me; it is not about government spying on me it is about government spying on the people! and most people are plain ignorant and careless! it is unfortunate! they need an 8th grade level NY-Times paper to tell them their news. . .yes that is an ad-hominin. “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence—it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action” (Washington 6)

zacketysack2 10y ago
So I've been thinking about this, and I think the main reason why non-technical people get flustered when talking about privacy and anonymity online is because they might feel guilty about doing nothing about it.
- anubisresources 10y ago
  I've always thought it's more a matter of ignorance. Most infosec risks are fairly abstract and difficult to grasp for non-technical folks. Many don't understand why what they are doing is bad. I really think that the infosec needs to do a much better job educating the public.
- astral303 10y ago
  Computers are incredibly complicated to use and full of stupid bullshit rules. The average person is barely staying above water trying to use computers and not get fucked (I.e. Losing their work due to a keyboard mispress), that it's very overwhelming to consider security and privacy on top.

kilroy123 10y ago

You're not alone. Everyone thinks I'm crazy and tells me this, "I have nothing to hide, why should I care?" It makes my blood boil.

nekopa 10y ago

I've found that recently, I've gotten people to understand the issues more by paraphrasing (what I think was Snowden's) the main point: The people doing this are not evil, nor do they have evil intentions. But they are setting up a turn-key system - and who knows who the next person in power will be. And relating it to the current situation vis a vis Donald Trump: Now, imagine Trump gets into power. He can quickly turn around and say "Find me all the people who do or say X so I can round them up and get them out of here!" Fill in X for whatever thing is innocuous now, but may not be under a future administration.

apeace 10y ago

I've come up with a response to this which seems to drive the point home. I simply say something along the lines of: You think I'm paranoid? You have nothing to hide? How about you give me all your passwords (Gmail, Facebook, your laptop, etc). I'll download everything about you, and I'll post it online for the world to see. Oh, you wouldn't want that to happen? Well that is the risk I am talking about. Governments can be hacked, too (and have been many times, recently). Hence if they have access to your data, all your data could potentially be leaked on the open internet. Government surveillance and hacking can affect everybody!

tdkl 10y ago
You or Glenn Greenwald ? :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSlowAhvUk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcSlowAhvUk
nekopa 10y ago
This reminds me of an old piece of advice I heard along time ago: Never write down something you don't want to be read aloud in a court of law. I apply this to what I do online, and so far, it has treated me well.
- whamlastxmas 10y ago
  Never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink.
NEDM64 10y ago
It's very easy, if that person say he/she doesn't have anything important on their phones, they have a GPS.

cloudjacker 10y ago

Actually I can mention the use of TOR in more and more casual conversations now "Just use TOR" "don't send an anonymous message to your ex on clearnet" etc

sliverstorm 10y ago

Is it all you talk about? That's why I see getting people ridiculed about things that are actually real concerns- it's practically all they talk about. I take privacy & security measures, but you wouldn't really know it, talking with me over a drink. Also, a fundamental beleif that everyone is out to get you (true or not), will turn most people off.

mistermann 10y ago

Just to play devil's advocate, or perhaps help you understand how these people think, consider illegal immigration. Many people, using the exact same logic as you, consider it to be a serious issue, whereas others would say such beliefs are baseless (to put it nicely) as any facts supporting any concern are "outliers".

tsmffh 10y ago
Essentially not thinking beyond stage one. (The self destruction of a welfare state and open borders, to use the immigration example)
- mistermann 10y ago
  Correct, but how many people in this thread who are shocked and disappointed at the lack of concern regarding privacy, hypocritically do not support increased control of the southern border of the US? It's not a completely analogous comparison, but there are many similarities.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

pbuzbee 10y ago

I feel like the problem is that people outside of tech don't have a sense of how much data is collected, and they also don't really see negative consequences of it. First, there aren't really any negative consequences to government surveillance. People don't regularly disappear in the middle of the night for a comment on a blog post, and there haven't been any major security leaks yet. This could easily change in the future of course, but so far it's easy to ignore. Second, there's no cool dashboard showing what info the NSA has on you. If individuals could see the scope of info stored on them, they would probably feel differently. For example, many people feel creeped out when they view Google's map of their location history. This is an opt-in choice and the map exists for your benefit, but it still makes people uncomfortable to see their lives so plainly visible on a screen.