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>The video you gave clearly showed how white men and white women get treated with privilege, yet your conclusion is that its only men who are privileged? How do

>The video you gave clearly showed how white men and white women get treated with privilege, yet your conclusion is that its only men who are privileged? How does that work? Being white is clearly privileged in both cases. I never "concluded" that "only" white men are privileged. My other example was meant to specifically trigger the strongest reaction when a black man was paired with the white woman. The way women are disadvantaged falls in other domains -- like the ability to get jobs in (at least some, probably most) STEM fields. It's a more nuanced distinction. > Ever been physically attacked by a customer who then goes to accuses you for being mentally sick because the profession you took (a story I read by a male midwife, 99% female to male ratio). Other stereotypes and arbitrary restrictions placed on gender are bad too. Male nurses are making inroads into the occupation, though they're still a minority. [1] Oddly enough, the men on average made more money per hour than the women. But the point is that something like 95% of occupations are either skewed toward men or balanced, and you have to go looking hard for any skewed toward women. And if you're looking for well paying jobs, the difference is even more stark. Pointing out the few examples where women have the advantage is roughly equivalent to the "separate but equal" arguments in support of black and white segregation. >There was a study by someone I no longer recall that showed how industries that has a single dominating gender, typically tend to create a work culture that infuses gender identity of the dominating group. Those of the minority gender then have to choose between either assimilate into that culture or leave. How much of "cultural pressures" could be explained by just that theory, and which gender is then privileged? Doesn't matter. It could all be explained by that theory, and it would still be important to break open the industries (on both sides -- male nursing and women in STEM) by changing the culture. Yes it can be uncomfortable. But the fact that a guy can graduate as a software engineer can look at a $100k+ offer out of college, and he can know that the career will be welcoming and comfortable, where a woman graduating with the same degree will face "bro" culture in a lot of companies, and be forced to "assimilate" into that culture or be ostracized? That's simply not OK. [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-male-us-nurses-triple-since-1970/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/number-of-male-us-nurses-triple-...

belorn 10y ago
> "But the point is that something like 95% of occupations are either skewed toward men or balanced, and you have to go looking hard for any skewed toward women" I will now recommend that you look at some actually numbers. To take Sweden as an example, 78% of women and 82% of men are employed. 70% of all professions are skewed towards being male or female dominated. Basic number awareness, do your 95% number above sound reasonable? Its not, and I do not have a hard time naming professions thats female dominate. I can just go down the list if you like, as the state produce statistics each year. Dentist. Hair stylist. Psychiatrists. Veterinarian. Bank teller. Above are some of the 90+% list. Want me to continue? Nurse. Preschool personal. Teachers. Hotel and office cleaner. Animal husbandry personal. Administrative assistant. Chefs. Want me to name a few typical male dominated professions? Mechanic. Truck driver. Warehouse employee. Carpenter. Operator of heavy machinery. Here, link! http://www.scb.se/Statistik/_Publikationer/LE0201_2013B14_BR_X10BR1401.pdf http://www.scb.se/Statistik/_Publikationer/LE0201_2013B14_BR... Go to page 66. There is the 30 largest professions (as per number of employed persons). The left side is number of women and right side is number of men. Notice how the two side is almost identical in number of professions that are skewed towards a single gender? Its not just nursing. Its not just about preschool. The IT profession is around 70% ratio of men. Veterinarian in contrast is often each year the the most sought after program in universities (counted as number of student applicants, divided by number of available seats), and it got somewhere around 90% ration of women vs men.
- SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
  Your link is in Swedish? I assume that they're not talking about US statistics in it. Different cultures are going to have different cultural barriers to jobs; there will be some overlap, but it's not going to be the same. In India, for instance, there are almost equal numbers of women and men in IT-related fields. There are other issues there, but that's one of the starkest examples I know of. There's a great US document here [1] that details a lot of the problem, at least here in the US. Nearly half of STEM occupations are computer related, and that's where women have some of the hardest time getting jobs (only 26.6% female). Another 32 percent are engineering occupations, where the numbers are even worse (only 13.2% female). Many of the jobs you listed aren't dominated by one gender; in your list, except for "nurse", most either are low paying or don't post a significant barrier to entry to men. More women want to be veterinarians? Good for them! I can't imagine being a male vet would encounter any cultural biases that would interfere with his ability to be comfortable in the job, so it's not equivalent. The word "veterinarian" or "vet" doesn't have a gender connotation for me (unlike "nurse", for instance), and while there may be more women at vet conferences than men, I don't see how that's a problem for them? Unless they're concerned about their perceived masculinity or something idiotic like that. I personally had no inclination at all to go into a medical or legal career; if I'd been born female, would it be OK for me to have been coerced into taking a lower-paying job, menial or otherwise, because of the harassment and bias present in STEM jobs? Computer-related jobs aren't the only option, but those are typically the options that are most accessible, in that they don't require a multi-year degree and professional certification. And yet computer related jobs are increasingly dominated by men for no valid reason; many of the jobs you enumerated are dominated by women because those are they jobs they can get. And if a woman does want to drive a truck or operate heavy machinery, that should be OK too. If that means that the guys need to not post centerfolds all over the office, or make derogatory jokes about women, so be it. Any hiring restrictions should be based purely on actual physical needs ("must be able to lift 70lbs." for instance). If you replace "Political Correctness" with "Treating Others With Respect," you get a better concept of what it is that matters about being "PC". Citing examples of professions that have a lot of women means nothing when the discussion is about specific domains (STEM in particular) that frequently exclude, or at least are not welcoming to, women. [1] http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf

belorn 10y ago

> "But the point is that something like 95% of occupations are either skewed toward men or balanced, and you have to go looking hard for any skewed toward women" I will now recommend that you look at some actually numbers. To take Sweden as an example, 78% of women and 82% of men are employed. 70% of all professions are skewed towards being male or female dominated. Basic number awareness, do your 95% number above sound reasonable? Its not, and I do not have a hard time naming professions thats female dominate. I can just go down the list if you like, as the state produce statistics each year. Dentist. Hair stylist. Psychiatrists. Veterinarian. Bank teller. Above are some of the 90+% list. Want me to continue? Nurse. Preschool personal. Teachers. Hotel and office cleaner. Animal husbandry personal. Administrative assistant. Chefs. Want me to name a few typical male dominated professions? Mechanic. Truck driver. Warehouse employee. Carpenter. Operator of heavy machinery. Here, link! http://www.scb.se/Statistik/_Publikationer/LE0201_2013B14_BR_X10BR1401.pdf http://www.scb.se/Statistik/_Publikationer/LE0201_2013B14_BR... Go to page 66. There is the 30 largest professions (as per number of employed persons). The left side is number of women and right side is number of men. Notice how the two side is almost identical in number of professions that are skewed towards a single gender? Its not just nursing. Its not just about preschool. The IT profession is around 70% ratio of men. Veterinarian in contrast is often each year the the most sought after program in universities (counted as number of student applicants, divided by number of available seats), and it got somewhere around 90% ration of women vs men.

SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
Your link is in Swedish? I assume that they're not talking about US statistics in it. Different cultures are going to have different cultural barriers to jobs; there will be some overlap, but it's not going to be the same. In India, for instance, there are almost equal numbers of women and men in IT-related fields. There are other issues there, but that's one of the starkest examples I know of. There's a great US document here [1] that details a lot of the problem, at least here in the US. Nearly half of STEM occupations are computer related, and that's where women have some of the hardest time getting jobs (only 26.6% female). Another 32 percent are engineering occupations, where the numbers are even worse (only 13.2% female). Many of the jobs you listed aren't dominated by one gender; in your list, except for "nurse", most either are low paying or don't post a significant barrier to entry to men. More women want to be veterinarians? Good for them! I can't imagine being a male vet would encounter any cultural biases that would interfere with his ability to be comfortable in the job, so it's not equivalent. The word "veterinarian" or "vet" doesn't have a gender connotation for me (unlike "nurse", for instance), and while there may be more women at vet conferences than men, I don't see how that's a problem for them? Unless they're concerned about their perceived masculinity or something idiotic like that. I personally had no inclination at all to go into a medical or legal career; if I'd been born female, would it be OK for me to have been coerced into taking a lower-paying job, menial or otherwise, because of the harassment and bias present in STEM jobs? Computer-related jobs aren't the only option, but those are typically the options that are most accessible, in that they don't require a multi-year degree and professional certification. And yet computer related jobs are increasingly dominated by men for no valid reason; many of the jobs you enumerated are dominated by women because those are they jobs they can get. And if a woman does want to drive a truck or operate heavy machinery, that should be OK too. If that means that the guys need to not post centerfolds all over the office, or make derogatory jokes about women, so be it. Any hiring restrictions should be based purely on actual physical needs ("must be able to lift 70lbs." for instance). If you replace "Political Correctness" with "Treating Others With Respect," you get a better concept of what it is that matters about being "PC". Citing examples of professions that have a lot of women means nothing when the discussion is about specific domains (STEM in particular) that frequently exclude, or at least are not welcoming to, women. [1] http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf