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> I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; quote: “Object-oriented programming is an exceptiona

> I'm Dutch, and bluntly calling out flaws in each other's work is not considered all that rude over here; quote: “Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea which could only have originated in California.” – Edsger Dijkstra Backus, on the other hand, is a genuinely lovely man. If you haven't read/seen his interview with CHM [1], then I urge you to do so. (Pay attention to his closing remarks!) [1]: http://www.computerhistory.org/fellowawards/hall/bios/John,Backus/ http://www.computerhistory.org/fellowawards/hall/bios/John,B...

B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
> Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea 'Truths as hard as fists', is one way I've seen it put in another language (sortof). > which could only have originated in California Flattery will get you anywhere. UTexas, in this case ...
- bloaf 10y ago
  >Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of ‘touching’ a man’s heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it. G. K. Chesterton
  - Retra 10y ago
    While I would agree with that in principle, I think the word "violence" is being stretched a bit. Being unforgiving, stubborn, demanding, hard-hearted, or anything adherence to logic might be claimed to imbue are not acts of violence, even if they are emotionally hurtful to others.
    - Jtsummers 10y ago
      Emotional harm is still violence. it is not a strictly physical phenomenon.
      - michaelmrose 10y ago
        That's not what that word means.
        Jtsummers 10y ago
        Look up the definition if you like.
      - oldmanjay 10y ago
        Was there a meeting where someone took the explicit decision to have followers repeat this lie until other people believed it, or do people like you take it upon yourselves to repeat this lie out of the basic evil in your heart?
        Jtsummers 10y ago
        What lie? What evil in my heart? Do you know me?
      - Pica_soO 10y ago
        I was molested by the universe, ever since i was evicted from the save space of the womb. ;) I would feel so ashamed, for soiling myself with self-pity in public and to perceive the distance others take from me as a success of my output.
        Jtsummers 10y ago
        Seriously? Where the fuck does this even come from? Emotional harm is violence. Like all violence it exists on a spectrum. There's unintended harm, accidental insults and the like. These are easily brushed over for healthy people but for others can become one straw too much. Sometimes it's intentional and "for their good". Honestly, honesty can be this sometimes. An honest answer may hurt someone but may be exactly what they need. Other times it's just taking it too far and being careless/heartless. And then there's the truly heinous deliberate form. Ask abused women and children. Did theirs users always hit them? Burn them? Starve them? No. Sometimes, oftentimes, they verbally and emotionally abused them. Keeping them from those who care about them. Creating a bubble around them to keep them despairing. Telling them they're worthless over and over until they believe it. I don't see where there's any self-pity in my post to be ashamed of. I'm just stating the fact that emotional harm is violence.
- dctoedt 10y ago
  > UTexas, in this case Got a reference for that? The Wikipedia discussion suggests otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Hi...
  - bendbro 10y ago
    I think he's saying that by attacking California schools, the University of Texas was more likely to take Dijkstra in.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Bromskloss 10y ago
Is the interview to be found on that page? I'm afraid I don't see it.
- eternalban 10y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDsWTyLEgbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDsWTyLEgbk
Typhon 10y ago
I could never find a reliable source for this oft-quoted remark about Object-Oriented Programming. As far as I know, Dijkstra never said this, not in this exact phrasing anyway.
- eternalban 10y ago
  http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/ http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
  - erikbye 10y ago
    That's not a reliable source, and it does not specify source of the quote.
- erikbye 10y ago
  Also, why would he say that when he knew, very well, that OOP was invented in Norway? http://coldcomfortgames.com/blog/object-oriented-programming-was-invented-in-norway/ http://coldcomfortgames.com/blog/object-oriented-programming... https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Dijkstra-say-that-%E2%80%9CObject-oriented-programming-is-an-exceptionally-bad-idea-which-could-only-have-originated-in-California-%E2%80%9D https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Dijkstra-say-that-%E2%80%9CObj... It seems no one is able to find the source of the quote, it's in fact much more likely he did not say anything like that, and that the quote is a fabrication.
  - Typhon 10y ago
    What he did say : « I don’t think object-oriented programming is a structuring paradigm that meets my standards of elegance » (https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/EWD1284.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/E...) I guess some decided that Dijkstra didn't have enough inflammatory quotes attached to his name and fabricated the other one.

B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago

> Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea 'Truths as hard as fists', is one way I've seen it put in another language (sortof). > which could only have originated in California Flattery will get you anywhere. UTexas, in this case ...

bloaf 10y ago
>Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of ‘touching’ a man’s heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it. G. K. Chesterton
- Retra 10y ago
  While I would agree with that in principle, I think the word "violence" is being stretched a bit. Being unforgiving, stubborn, demanding, hard-hearted, or anything adherence to logic might be claimed to imbue are not acts of violence, even if they are emotionally hurtful to others.
  - Jtsummers 10y ago
    Emotional harm is still violence. it is not a strictly physical phenomenon.
    - michaelmrose 10y ago
      That's not what that word means.
      - Jtsummers 10y ago
        Look up the definition if you like.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      Was there a meeting where someone took the explicit decision to have followers repeat this lie until other people believed it, or do people like you take it upon yourselves to repeat this lie out of the basic evil in your heart?
      - Jtsummers 10y ago
        What lie? What evil in my heart? Do you know me?
    - Pica_soO 10y ago
      I was molested by the universe, ever since i was evicted from the save space of the womb. ;) I would feel so ashamed, for soiling myself with self-pity in public and to perceive the distance others take from me as a success of my output.
      - Jtsummers 10y ago
        Seriously? Where the fuck does this even come from? Emotional harm is violence. Like all violence it exists on a spectrum. There's unintended harm, accidental insults and the like. These are easily brushed over for healthy people but for others can become one straw too much. Sometimes it's intentional and "for their good". Honestly, honesty can be this sometimes. An honest answer may hurt someone but may be exactly what they need. Other times it's just taking it too far and being careless/heartless. And then there's the truly heinous deliberate form. Ask abused women and children. Did theirs users always hit them? Burn them? Starve them? No. Sometimes, oftentimes, they verbally and emotionally abused them. Keeping them from those who care about them. Creating a bubble around them to keep them despairing. Telling them they're worthless over and over until they believe it. I don't see where there's any self-pity in my post to be ashamed of. I'm just stating the fact that emotional harm is violence.
dctoedt 10y ago
> UTexas, in this case Got a reference for that? The Wikipedia discussion suggests otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Hi...
- bendbro 10y ago
  I think he's saying that by attacking California schools, the University of Texas was more likely to take Dijkstra in.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Bromskloss 10y ago

Is the interview to be found on that page? I'm afraid I don't see it.

eternalban 10y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDsWTyLEgbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDsWTyLEgbk

Typhon 10y ago

I could never find a reliable source for this oft-quoted remark about Object-Oriented Programming. As far as I know, Dijkstra never said this, not in this exact phrasing anyway.

eternalban 10y ago
http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/ http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
- erikbye 10y ago
  That's not a reliable source, and it does not specify source of the quote.
erikbye 10y ago
Also, why would he say that when he knew, very well, that OOP was invented in Norway? http://coldcomfortgames.com/blog/object-oriented-programming-was-invented-in-norway/ http://coldcomfortgames.com/blog/object-oriented-programming... https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Dijkstra-say-that-%E2%80%9CObject-oriented-programming-is-an-exceptionally-bad-idea-which-could-only-have-originated-in-California-%E2%80%9D https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Dijkstra-say-that-%E2%80%9CObj... It seems no one is able to find the source of the quote, it's in fact much more likely he did not say anything like that, and that the quote is a fabrication.
- Typhon 10y ago
  What he did say : « I don’t think object-oriented programming is a structuring paradigm that meets my standards of elegance » (https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/EWD1284.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD12xx/E...) I guess some decided that Dijkstra didn't have enough inflammatory quotes attached to his name and fabricated the other one.