7 ms·

Dutch Firm Trains Eagles to Take Down Drones

69 points by breck 10y ago

ChuckMcM 10y ago
I'm trying to figure out if I can build a device which will give a crow or raven a treat if it deposits a piece from a drone in the box. My biologist daughter was explaining that I need some way to have this action take place spontaneously so that future training can reinforce it, so perhaps first training them to put things in the box, then working on getting them to specialize in drone parts.
- etendue 10y ago
  If you get the bird clicker trained you're more than half way there, and birds generally take to clicker training very quickly. Those particular birds have an affinity for shiny things, so painting the parts silver or wrapping them with foil might be one way to prompt the behavior for reinforcement. edit: for the other half, depositing the parts where you'd like, look up "targeting". I'd train the birds to a colored sticker, then place the sticker on your deposit box gizmo.
pingec 10y ago
But isn't there a big chance of the eagle getting hurt by the blades?
- jdavis703 10y ago
  Which is why they're investigating equipping the talons with glove-like protection.
- slimsag 10y ago
  From the article: > Worries have been raised that birds could be struck and seriously injured by a drone’s blades. Mr. Hoogendoorn said that the safety of the animals was a top priority, and that although eagles’ talons had scales to protect them, work was underway to give them more covering. Mr. Wiebes said safety measures could include some form of glovelike sheath for the talons.
  - shpx 10y ago
    Larger drones have carbon fiber propellers. Sticking a body part in the props at full speed is like sticking your hands in a blender [0]. Intuitively it seems you'd still break talons if you stuck them in a blender even if you covered them in leather gloves. Seems like this would work pretty well for micro drones though. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/1b5ihe/nsfw_gore_warning_about_multicopters_power_cf/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/1b5ihe/nsfw_go... (NSFW obviously)
  - leonroy 10y ago
    Absolute lunacy - a bird will be seriously injured by this at some point. Even the cheapest decent drone (Parrot AR Drone) can cause skin lacerations with its flimsy plastic blades. I shudder to think what some of DJI's carbon fibre blades and significantly more powerful motors do to flesh and bone. Why don't they simply use drones to take down drones? It surely would be cheaper than training an eagle!
    - sintaxi 10y ago
      You are vastly underestimating the strength and durability of an eagle. Eagles are birds of prey. They can fuck up wolves and goats both of which have significant characteristics to deal out damage themselves. I would guess an Eagle could take down any consumer level drone without any issue what-so-ever. Military drones are another matter completely. Eagles manufacture themselves and training them to take something out of the sky is probably not much more difficult than training a dog to play fetch.
      - Shivetya 10y ago
        Long term he is correct though. Drone makers will just about figure out how to circumvent birds one way or another, either from changes in selectivity, sounds, or even as someone suggested - chemical counters. Drones set to hunt drones are a no brainer. The military will certainly have them so it won't be long before the police do. Even a ground based solution might work against any non hardened drone - just fry its electronics. You can pretty much limit the range of such an effect and I can imagine scenarios where all drones are just dropped from the sky.
- lucb1e 10y ago
  Original Dutch news that covered this like half a year ago mentioned the people handling the eagles laughing it off with "they've got skin more than thick enough!". This article mentions they are going to add even more protection.
  - dTal 10y ago
    Total madness. The first of these birds to encounter an RC helicopter will be shredded, protection notwithstanding. It seems to me like training animals to commit suicide by hurling themselves into whirling blades is a larger crime than flying a radio controlled toy somewhere you're not supposed to.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pj_mukh 10y ago
There is so much glee and coverage around all this anti-drone tech. There's about 2Million of these drones out there [1]. Talking about spike strips and auto-blockades when there were just 2 Million cars out there in the early 1900's would've surely been considered counter-productive? And all the drone sightings seems so hyperbolic, and that's when they weren't "maybe plastic bags" [2]. Click-baiting is afoot methinks. [1] http://dronelife.com/2015/04/16/drone-sales-numbers-nobody-knows-so-we-venture-a-guess/ http://dronelife.com/2015/04/16/drone-sales-numbers-nobody-k... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/drone-believed-to-have-hit-british-airways-flight-may-have-been/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/drone-believed-to...
gene-h 10y ago
Now we just need to develop UAS's with eagle countermeasures. Lucky for us there is a compound that behaves like capsaicin does in humans but with birds. Methyl anthranilate[0], the chemical responsible for grape flavor in koolaid, bubble gum, and other food products, causes temporary painful sensations in avians. Oh and it is mostly harmless to avians and humans, it's a food product for crying out loud. Sadly it does not appear that food products contain high concentrations of methyl anthranilate, but methyl anthranilate can be purchased in large quantities as a bird repellant. So all we need to do to protect our UAS's is mount a MA fogger on them. So here's the neat thing, UAS's are nice sources of turbulent flow, a fact which the Yamaha Rmax helicopter exploits to better coat plants with pesticide[1]. This means if we inject MA fog into our UAS's prop wash we can attain optimal MA application on attacking avians. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_anthranilate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_anthranilate [1] http://www.gizmag.com/go/2440/ http://www.gizmag.com/go/2440/
- credit_guy 10y ago
  A food product for crying out loud ... I see what you did there
- partycoder 10y ago
  I was thinking of the same thing. But unfortunately people flying drones for malicious reasons may not think in the best interest of the animals. They can make use of mace or something.
- kinkora 10y ago
  I think you need to define "mostly harmless". I will imagine that if a bird gets sprayed those chemicals mid-air, it will either drop to the ground or start flying erratically and collide into something mid-air which can cause death[1]. [1] I've seen a bird hit the side of my stationary car out of nowhere and it died on the spot.
  - robhu 10y ago
    Similarly these birds are attacking drones midair which may cause them to spiral to the ground and be destroyed. It seems like fair game to build anti-bird defences in to your drone given that birds are being trained to attack them. Perhaps it will make these people think twice.
intrasight 10y ago
Truth is stranger than (science) fiction
aaron695 10y ago
What if satanic cultists played rock and roll from a drone and corrupted our youth? Yes..... if a drone actually was a security risk you want an animal to deal with it? OK, in prisons you could use it to minimise security issues, ie 'reduce' the drugs getting in. But otherwise wtf? Take that terrorists we have a Eagle, that will probably stop you. Idiots. Terrorists will be doing some interesting stuff in this area at some point. They are not yet. But they are already winning, people are scared and no one has even done anything. Easiest job in the world.
fallinghawks 10y ago
As someone who works closely with birds of prey, I really wish this idea would go away. To me it's really not about whether or not it's dangerous to the raptor. It is, sure. But it is incredibly easy for a drone to evade a raptor by going straight up. No bird can climb that fast, not even a peregrine falcon, which is the fastest raptor going down. Any drone operator who's got half an eye on his/her drone will see that eagle coming and just get the heck out of there.
- spatulan 10y ago
  Are most drone operators experts on bird of prey escape tactics?
  - duggan 10y ago
    Well, if the information is known, then it can be shared. The point being that once it is well known (which it will be if it's in any way successful initially), then it will simply be added to the drone operator handbook, and become less useful as an enforcement tactic.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  If they know that they probably would not be flying their drone where it can cause problems It seems it's most a case of dimwits flying it wherever they think it's "cool" with total disregard for aircraft and other things
jon_richards 10y ago
Wouldn't it be easier to just put a butterfly net on another drone?

69 points by breck 10y ago

I'm trying to figure out if I can build a device which will give a crow or raven a treat if it deposits a piece from a drone in the box. My biologist daughter was explaining that I need some way to have this action take place spontaneously so that future training can reinforce it, so perhaps first training them to put things in the box, then working on getting them to specialize in drone parts.

etendue 10y ago
If you get the bird clicker trained you're more than half way there, and birds generally take to clicker training very quickly. Those particular birds have an affinity for shiny things, so painting the parts silver or wrapping them with foil might be one way to prompt the behavior for reinforcement. edit: for the other half, depositing the parts where you'd like, look up "targeting". I'd train the birds to a colored sticker, then place the sticker on your deposit box gizmo.

pingec 10y ago

But isn't there a big chance of the eagle getting hurt by the blades?

jdavis703 10y ago
Which is why they're investigating equipping the talons with glove-like protection.
slimsag 10y ago
From the article: > Worries have been raised that birds could be struck and seriously injured by a drone’s blades. Mr. Hoogendoorn said that the safety of the animals was a top priority, and that although eagles’ talons had scales to protect them, work was underway to give them more covering. Mr. Wiebes said safety measures could include some form of glovelike sheath for the talons.
- shpx 10y ago
  Larger drones have carbon fiber propellers. Sticking a body part in the props at full speed is like sticking your hands in a blender [0]. Intuitively it seems you'd still break talons if you stuck them in a blender even if you covered them in leather gloves. Seems like this would work pretty well for micro drones though. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/1b5ihe/nsfw_gore_warning_about_multicopters_power_cf/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/1b5ihe/nsfw_go... (NSFW obviously)
- leonroy 10y ago
  Absolute lunacy - a bird will be seriously injured by this at some point. Even the cheapest decent drone (Parrot AR Drone) can cause skin lacerations with its flimsy plastic blades. I shudder to think what some of DJI's carbon fibre blades and significantly more powerful motors do to flesh and bone. Why don't they simply use drones to take down drones? It surely would be cheaper than training an eagle!
  - sintaxi 10y ago
    You are vastly underestimating the strength and durability of an eagle. Eagles are birds of prey. They can fuck up wolves and goats both of which have significant characteristics to deal out damage themselves. I would guess an Eagle could take down any consumer level drone without any issue what-so-ever. Military drones are another matter completely. Eagles manufacture themselves and training them to take something out of the sky is probably not much more difficult than training a dog to play fetch.
    - Shivetya 10y ago
      Long term he is correct though. Drone makers will just about figure out how to circumvent birds one way or another, either from changes in selectivity, sounds, or even as someone suggested - chemical counters. Drones set to hunt drones are a no brainer. The military will certainly have them so it won't be long before the police do. Even a ground based solution might work against any non hardened drone - just fry its electronics. You can pretty much limit the range of such an effect and I can imagine scenarios where all drones are just dropped from the sky.
lucb1e 10y ago
Original Dutch news that covered this like half a year ago mentioned the people handling the eagles laughing it off with "they've got skin more than thick enough!". This article mentions they are going to add even more protection.
- dTal 10y ago
  Total madness. The first of these birds to encounter an RC helicopter will be shredded, protection notwithstanding. It seems to me like training animals to commit suicide by hurling themselves into whirling blades is a larger crime than flying a radio controlled toy somewhere you're not supposed to.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

pj_mukh 10y ago

There is so much glee and coverage around all this anti-drone tech. There's about 2Million of these drones out there [1]. Talking about spike strips and auto-blockades when there were just 2 Million cars out there in the early 1900's would've surely been considered counter-productive? And all the drone sightings seems so hyperbolic, and that's when they weren't "maybe plastic bags" [2]. Click-baiting is afoot methinks. [1] http://dronelife.com/2015/04/16/drone-sales-numbers-nobody-knows-so-we-venture-a-guess/ http://dronelife.com/2015/04/16/drone-sales-numbers-nobody-k... [2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/drone-believed-to-have-hit-british-airways-flight-may-have-been/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/drone-believed-to...

gene-h 10y ago

Now we just need to develop UAS's with eagle countermeasures. Lucky for us there is a compound that behaves like capsaicin does in humans but with birds. Methyl anthranilate[0], the chemical responsible for grape flavor in koolaid, bubble gum, and other food products, causes temporary painful sensations in avians. Oh and it is mostly harmless to avians and humans, it's a food product for crying out loud. Sadly it does not appear that food products contain high concentrations of methyl anthranilate, but methyl anthranilate can be purchased in large quantities as a bird repellant. So all we need to do to protect our UAS's is mount a MA fogger on them. So here's the neat thing, UAS's are nice sources of turbulent flow, a fact which the Yamaha Rmax helicopter exploits to better coat plants with pesticide[1]. This means if we inject MA fog into our UAS's prop wash we can attain optimal MA application on attacking avians. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_anthranilate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_anthranilate [1] http://www.gizmag.com/go/2440/ http://www.gizmag.com/go/2440/

credit_guy 10y ago
A food product for crying out loud ... I see what you did there
partycoder 10y ago
I was thinking of the same thing. But unfortunately people flying drones for malicious reasons may not think in the best interest of the animals. They can make use of mace or something.
kinkora 10y ago
I think you need to define "mostly harmless". I will imagine that if a bird gets sprayed those chemicals mid-air, it will either drop to the ground or start flying erratically and collide into something mid-air which can cause death[1]. [1] I've seen a bird hit the side of my stationary car out of nowhere and it died on the spot.
- robhu 10y ago
  Similarly these birds are attacking drones midair which may cause them to spiral to the ground and be destroyed. It seems like fair game to build anti-bird defences in to your drone given that birds are being trained to attack them. Perhaps it will make these people think twice.

intrasight 10y ago

Truth is stranger than (science) fiction

aaron695 10y ago

What if satanic cultists played rock and roll from a drone and corrupted our youth? Yes..... if a drone actually was a security risk you want an animal to deal with it? OK, in prisons you could use it to minimise security issues, ie 'reduce' the drugs getting in. But otherwise wtf? Take that terrorists we have a Eagle, that will probably stop you. Idiots. Terrorists will be doing some interesting stuff in this area at some point. They are not yet. But they are already winning, people are scared and no one has even done anything. Easiest job in the world.

fallinghawks 10y ago

As someone who works closely with birds of prey, I really wish this idea would go away. To me it's really not about whether or not it's dangerous to the raptor. It is, sure. But it is incredibly easy for a drone to evade a raptor by going straight up. No bird can climb that fast, not even a peregrine falcon, which is the fastest raptor going down. Any drone operator who's got half an eye on his/her drone will see that eagle coming and just get the heck out of there.

spatulan 10y ago
Are most drone operators experts on bird of prey escape tactics?
- duggan 10y ago
  Well, if the information is known, then it can be shared. The point being that once it is well known (which it will be if it's in any way successful initially), then it will simply be added to the drone operator handbook, and become less useful as an enforcement tactic.
raverbashing 10y ago
If they know that they probably would not be flying their drone where it can cause problems It seems it's most a case of dimwits flying it wherever they think it's "cool" with total disregard for aircraft and other things

jon_richards 10y ago

Wouldn't it be easier to just put a butterfly net on another drone?