7 ms·

> If you are white and male, for example, then you are seen as privileged because, statistically, white males have more wealth and power. No. If you are white

> If you are white and male, for example, then you are seen as privileged because, statistically, white males have more wealth and power. No. If you are white and male, you've experienced more invisible privilege than you realize. [1] It's not about wealth, but it is about power -- power over others. Questions: * White man says that black woman stole something from him. What will happen? * White woman says that black man stole something from her. What will happen? * Black man says that white woman stole something from him. What will happen? * Black woman says that white man stole something from her. What will happen? What were your honest, visceral, reactions to each of these statements? Were they all completely symmetric? I can tell you I've been working on balancing my own feelings about various races, and I can't claim my own thoughts were completely unbiased. And I have been trying for years to purge the bias. There's an awesome video of three college-student-aged in a park. All three are obviously trying to steal a bike. They picked three actors and dressed them roughly equivalently. [2] Watch the video if you want to be shocked, or just read my summary if you can't be bothered: * White Actor: Everyone ignores him or asks him what he's doing. He gives dodgy answers, but people wish him "good luck" or leave the scene. Some say they might have called the police later (when confronted by the camera crew), but they clearly didn't seem to be concerned. * Black Actor: Within seconds, people start to confront him. They talk about calling the police. They CALL the police, right then and there. Many are confrontational. * White Female Actor: People walk by, mostly ignoring her; one guy offers to help her steal the bike. That last one had me dying of laughter. If that video doesn't convey a direct, obvious example of white privilege, then I'm perfectly confident in saying you're the one who's got the closed mind -- or a political agenda to promote. That video is one indisputable example of white privilege. Watch that video and tell me, with a straight face, that 90% of US prison populations are black men because they commit more crimes, and not because they simply are arrested more often. For drug crimes especially; I knew tons of kids who did drugs when I was in (my 99% white) high school, and none were harassed by cops, much less arrested. One guy's brother got arrested eventually for dealing [EDIT: Just remembered, he was or at least looked hispanic!]. Would that have been true if it were 99% black? I bet everyone I knew would have a story about being harassed. > When challenged on this whole bizarre re-definition of equality, many will dismiss it as "reverse racism", meaning it's only racist against the dominant group, so who cares. The dominant group doesn't need help. Some other groups do. Helping groups isn't the same as discrimination. Girls do as well as boys in engineering and programming, and yet many cultural pressures push them away -- not least of which are the attitudes of boys (and other girls) toward girls who seem to "geeky." Is it bad to have programs that encourage girls to follow STEM career paths? But if you fire a white person to maintain a quota of black employees, that is reverse racism, and it's illegal. I know because I'm friends with a (liberal) attorney who successfully won a multimillion dollar reverse-discrimination lawsuit against an employer who fired white employees to meet a minority quota. (IIRC--not sure if I have the details precisely correct.) > At Missou, the activists demanded blacks-only housing so that they could explore their culture. Were the activists black? Given the video above, and the way that blacks can be treated in the US, could you really blame them for wanting to live in a safe place, where someone isn't going to accuse them of ... whatever? > So if you are a liberal Muslim woman seeking equal rights and treatment for Muslim women, the regressive left will actually fight against you, even trying to get you banned from speaking at a university. This topic is far more complex than you're making it out to be -- and I can't claim to know all of the details. Among other things, there are people (and countries: France) that want to prevent Muslim women from wearing traditional Muslim garb in the name of "liberating" them. I would say that any government that is enforcing a particular behavior (that doesn't harm others!) has to provide the burden of proof that their actions are just. And forcing women to take off all head scarves or religious symbolism is no better than forcing them all to wear head scarves. You're throwing up straw men by the ton; there are real people out there, suffering broad cultural prejudice, and people like you are trying to ridicule them by using terms like SJW. I'm a privileged, straight, white man, and I recognize that fact. Maybe it's easier to recognize because I also have a decent amount of wealth, but I'm not going to pretend that my success is entirely because I'm awesome. It was far easier for me to get where I am because I'm privileged, and I'm not going to poke fun at people who are trying to help those who aren't. And I'm going to try to help disadvantaged people when I can, your ridicule or no. [1] https://www.mtholyoke.edu/org/wsar/intro.htm https://www.mtholyoke.edu/org/wsar/intro.htm [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7i60GuNRg

AnthonyMouse 10y ago
> What were your honest, visceral, reactions to each of these statements? Let me add some: Attractive white woman says that low income white man stole something from her. What will happen? Black woman and white woman each comment that babies of their own race are the prettiest babies. What will happen? Power dynamics are fluid and contextual. > Helping groups isn't the same as discrimination. It is. The only cases where it makes a difference are inherently zero sum or net negative, because if they weren't then the racial preference wouldn't have been necessary to reach the same outcome. > Watch that video and tell me, with a straight face, that 90% of US prison populations are black men because they commit more crimes, and not because they simply are arrested more often. 90% of US prison populations are men. Less than half of those men are black men. Black men are, however, highly overrepresented in part for the reasons you suggest. > Girls do as well as boys in engineering and programming, and yet many cultural pressures push them away -- not least of which are the attitudes of boys (and other girls) toward girls who seem to "geeky." Is it bad to have programs that encourage girls to follow STEM career paths? It depends on the nature of the program. Does the program mitigate the cultural pressures? Good. Does the program make girls "special" and give them things not available to the boys? Not good. > It was far easier for me to get where I am because I'm privileged, and I'm not going to poke fun at people who are trying to help those who aren't. Which is why it's a lot easier to tell how much help someone needs based on where they are right now rather than the color of their skin or whether or not they have a penis.
- SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
  > Power dynamics are fluid and contextual. True, but a distraction. When you can have a black man graduate from a top university, well dressed, and yet pulled over, torn from a car, treated poorly and handcuffed -- all for being black and owning a car that made the cops think he might be a drug dealer, that seems even worse than privilege from money. Fighting privilege as a result of wealth is another noble cause; the entire 99% movement was about that, as is Bernie Sanders' popularity. But its existence doesn't mean that other problems aren't worse. I honestly don't like the statements on either side about the babies, so I'll just leave that one. > > Helping groups isn't the same as discrimination. > It is. The only cases where it makes a difference are inherently zero sum or net negative, because if they weren't then the racial preference wouldn't have been necessary to reach the same outcome. No, I'm not talking quotas, I'm talking extra education and being open to working with someone who doesn't look like you. There are cognitive biases that cause people to naturally want to work with people who look like themselves; making an extra effort to overcome that bias and honestly compare candidates is not, by any stretch, a bad thing. It's only "net negative" if you think the whites who had all of the privilege somehow "deserved" the jobs that the potentially better minority or disadvantaged candidates could get with additional help and with mitigation of bias in hiring. I know that there are groups who feel that way (otherwise Trump wouldn't be where he is), but that kind of us-vs-them mentality is harmful.

AnthonyMouse 10y ago

> What were your honest, visceral, reactions to each of these statements? Let me add some: Attractive white woman says that low income white man stole something from her. What will happen? Black woman and white woman each comment that babies of their own race are the prettiest babies. What will happen? Power dynamics are fluid and contextual. > Helping groups isn't the same as discrimination. It is. The only cases where it makes a difference are inherently zero sum or net negative, because if they weren't then the racial preference wouldn't have been necessary to reach the same outcome. > Watch that video and tell me, with a straight face, that 90% of US prison populations are black men because they commit more crimes, and not because they simply are arrested more often. 90% of US prison populations are men. Less than half of those men are black men. Black men are, however, highly overrepresented in part for the reasons you suggest. > Girls do as well as boys in engineering and programming, and yet many cultural pressures push them away -- not least of which are the attitudes of boys (and other girls) toward girls who seem to "geeky." Is it bad to have programs that encourage girls to follow STEM career paths? It depends on the nature of the program. Does the program mitigate the cultural pressures? Good. Does the program make girls "special" and give them things not available to the boys? Not good. > It was far easier for me to get where I am because I'm privileged, and I'm not going to poke fun at people who are trying to help those who aren't. Which is why it's a lot easier to tell how much help someone needs based on where they are right now rather than the color of their skin or whether or not they have a penis.

SomeCallMeTim 10y ago
> Power dynamics are fluid and contextual. True, but a distraction. When you can have a black man graduate from a top university, well dressed, and yet pulled over, torn from a car, treated poorly and handcuffed -- all for being black and owning a car that made the cops think he might be a drug dealer, that seems even worse than privilege from money. Fighting privilege as a result of wealth is another noble cause; the entire 99% movement was about that, as is Bernie Sanders' popularity. But its existence doesn't mean that other problems aren't worse. I honestly don't like the statements on either side about the babies, so I'll just leave that one. > > Helping groups isn't the same as discrimination. > It is. The only cases where it makes a difference are inherently zero sum or net negative, because if they weren't then the racial preference wouldn't have been necessary to reach the same outcome. No, I'm not talking quotas, I'm talking extra education and being open to working with someone who doesn't look like you. There are cognitive biases that cause people to naturally want to work with people who look like themselves; making an extra effort to overcome that bias and honestly compare candidates is not, by any stretch, a bad thing. It's only "net negative" if you think the whites who had all of the privilege somehow "deserved" the jobs that the potentially better minority or disadvantaged candidates could get with additional help and with mitigation of bias in hiring. I know that there are groups who feel that way (otherwise Trump wouldn't be where he is), but that kind of us-vs-them mentality is harmful.