4 ms·

no I mean that flash is a proprietary runtime that can change at the whim of a company, is badly supported on niche platforms, and is terribly hard to introspec

no I mean that flash is a proprietary runtime that can change at the whim of a company, is badly supported on niche platforms, and is terribly hard to introspect. building open standards is an order of magnitude harder, on the face flash may seem so much more powerful, but taking into account the massive implications of open vs propietary its easy to understand why it is that way, and why its worth pushing things like canvas to be half as powerful as flash is now.

teej 17y ago
Pavlov wasn't arguing against the development of Canvas. He was merely pointing out that, while impressive, Canvas has a -long- way to go before it's a viable platform for full-scale multimedia work on the web. Being viable is a combination of performance, authoring tools, and reach. Of course, there are lots of reasons to hate Flash, but you need to recognize what Flash does well to be able to beat it. Today, Flash beats Canvas at everything that matters on the web. Tomorrow, Canvas will have to exceed Flash at those things to be the winner. And even then, Adobe isn't going down without a fight.
- ZeroGravitas 17y ago
  It seems "disruptive innovation" has gone lately from being an overused buzzword to being an entirely forgotten concept. Short version: it is not always necessary to be better at everything to be a threat to an established product. For an example see the case of mainframes vs. mini-computers which was brought up (and sneered at) above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
  - daleharvey 17y ago
    I probably should have mentioned it myself but disruptive innovation / innovators dilemma / christienssen was exactly what I was alluding to, cheers.
  - pavlov 17y ago
    Certainly not a forgotten concept. Flash itself was a highly disruptive technology: originally a vector painting engine created for mid-'90s pen computing, it sneaked under the radar for years under the guise of a harmless animation plugin. Who could have foreseen in 1998 that Flash would replace not only Shockwave and Java, but also QuickTime and Windows Media on the web? Sun, Apple and Microsoft had their lunch eaten without even noticing -- and they actively aided their fall by bundling the plugin in their products. ("It's only 100k, and advertisers like to use it for animated banners. How could it possibly threaten our business?") IMHO, that is disruptive. In contrast, HTML 5 seems rather like a sustaining innovation that supports the existing business model of certain web giants.
WilliamLP 17y ago
> no I mean that flash is a proprietary runtime that can change at the whim of a company, Are you very sure that if JS and HTML5 authoring tools became good enough (as Flash is) to threaten Apple's business in selling and fully controlling iPhone and iPad apps, that they wouldn't or couldn't change compatibility at a whim? Running on iPhone is the one major advantage this has. (Not being an open platform... It's anything but an advantage when it won't even run on IE in the foreseeable future.)
- philwelch 17y ago
  As long as the JS/HTML runtime can guarantee good performance, I can't see Apple complaining. Apple isn't going after Flash because it competes with their app store, Apple's going after Flash because it's a performance dog with near-impossible touchscreen usability and little to no ability for Apple to create a better runtime for.
- daleharvey 17y ago
  I am pretty sure since apple are one of a few companies really pushing html5 and javascript right now, the html5 support for mobile webkit is pretty top notch. I dont undestand why people think the appstore is apples business, they havent made any money from the appstore, they do however make an awful lot of money selling hardware, but this is for another thread.
  - WilliamLP 17y ago
    > I dont undestand why people think the appstore is apples business, They sure seem fiercely intent on having total control over app developers on the platform though, don't they? Currently JS and HTML5 has very close to zero demonstrated potential to be a viable alternative to creating and distributing the kind of apps that are on the appstore. Again, are you really sure that if it matures to the point where this isn't true any more, Apple wouldn't do something about it? If you are sure, you're naive. Regardless of Apple's intentions (you can think they're Good Samaritans who want to protect users from poorly performing Flash apps if you wish), if there's one thing they've shown is that they really really want total control in that particular space.

teej 17y ago

Pavlov wasn't arguing against the development of Canvas. He was merely pointing out that, while impressive, Canvas has a -long- way to go before it's a viable platform for full-scale multimedia work on the web. Being viable is a combination of performance, authoring tools, and reach. Of course, there are lots of reasons to hate Flash, but you need to recognize what Flash does well to be able to beat it. Today, Flash beats Canvas at everything that matters on the web. Tomorrow, Canvas will have to exceed Flash at those things to be the winner. And even then, Adobe isn't going down without a fight.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago
It seems "disruptive innovation" has gone lately from being an overused buzzword to being an entirely forgotten concept. Short version: it is not always necessary to be better at everything to be a threat to an established product. For an example see the case of mainframes vs. mini-computers which was brought up (and sneered at) above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruptive_technology
- daleharvey 17y ago
  I probably should have mentioned it myself but disruptive innovation / innovators dilemma / christienssen was exactly what I was alluding to, cheers.
- pavlov 17y ago
  Certainly not a forgotten concept. Flash itself was a highly disruptive technology: originally a vector painting engine created for mid-'90s pen computing, it sneaked under the radar for years under the guise of a harmless animation plugin. Who could have foreseen in 1998 that Flash would replace not only Shockwave and Java, but also QuickTime and Windows Media on the web? Sun, Apple and Microsoft had their lunch eaten without even noticing -- and they actively aided their fall by bundling the plugin in their products. ("It's only 100k, and advertisers like to use it for animated banners. How could it possibly threaten our business?") IMHO, that is disruptive. In contrast, HTML 5 seems rather like a sustaining innovation that supports the existing business model of certain web giants.

WilliamLP 17y ago

> no I mean that flash is a proprietary runtime that can change at the whim of a company, Are you very sure that if JS and HTML5 authoring tools became good enough (as Flash is) to threaten Apple's business in selling and fully controlling iPhone and iPad apps, that they wouldn't or couldn't change compatibility at a whim? Running on iPhone is the one major advantage this has. (Not being an open platform... It's anything but an advantage when it won't even run on IE in the foreseeable future.)

philwelch 17y ago
As long as the JS/HTML runtime can guarantee good performance, I can't see Apple complaining. Apple isn't going after Flash because it competes with their app store, Apple's going after Flash because it's a performance dog with near-impossible touchscreen usability and little to no ability for Apple to create a better runtime for.
daleharvey 17y ago
I am pretty sure since apple are one of a few companies really pushing html5 and javascript right now, the html5 support for mobile webkit is pretty top notch. I dont undestand why people think the appstore is apples business, they havent made any money from the appstore, they do however make an awful lot of money selling hardware, but this is for another thread.
- WilliamLP 17y ago
  > I dont undestand why people think the appstore is apples business, They sure seem fiercely intent on having total control over app developers on the platform though, don't they? Currently JS and HTML5 has very close to zero demonstrated potential to be a viable alternative to creating and distributing the kind of apps that are on the appstore. Again, are you really sure that if it matures to the point where this isn't true any more, Apple wouldn't do something about it? If you are sure, you're naive. Regardless of Apple's intentions (you can think they're Good Samaritans who want to protect users from poorly performing Flash apps if you wish), if there's one thing they've shown is that they really really want total control in that particular space.