11 ms·

Because if you have an interest in Germany continuing to exist in the future, you need German people. A country filled with Arabs, Africans, and Afghans isn't

by cb18 10y ago

Because if you have an interest in Germany continuing to exist in the future, you need German people. A country filled with Arabs, Africans, and Afghans isn't Germany, peoples aren't fungible in that way.

ItendToDisagree 10y ago
Yes. I'm sure all of the Germans of Turkish familial origin would agree... They aren't Germans. Even though they were born in Germany and speak German. You can be non-Caucasian and still be German. That is what you were getting at right?
- adrianN 10y ago
  Many of the Germans of Turkish familial origin still self-identify as Turks, not as German, or as both Turkish and German, in the second or third generation. You certainly can be German and non-caucasian, but you actually have to believe yourself to be German and be part of German culture.
  - ItendToDisagree 10y ago
    Fairly sure that most Americans of Japanese ancestry consider themselves both Japanese and American. Same goes for most other ethnicity. Does that make them any LESS American? Many Puerto Ricans consider themselves both Puerto Rican AND American. This is especially interesting given Puerto Rico is an American territory yet it is considered a different cultural group. Germans of Turkish descent are in fact still Turkish regardless of generation. Similarly Germans of Chinese descent are still Chinese while also being German. Your final sentence is the nut. The rest of it is just discrimination (small d) of people into cultural groups. (Edit: As an aside... Is Doner German culture? Or is it Turkish?)
    - ATsch 10y ago
      Döner is a traditional Turkish meal. It is sold as a dish on rice, on a bread, or in a wrap. However, the Döner Kebab as it is known in Germany today originated with immigrants in Berlin. I don't think it's easy to say what culture it is. The German Döner is still very similar to the traditional meal, but "Eating a Döner" has engrained itself deeply into German culture. Normally, when eating foreign food, you'd call it by the country it comes from. If you order a burrito, you're "Eating Mexican", if you order a Pasta you're "eating Italian" and if you are having sushi you are "eating Asian". But you don't "eat Turkish" when eating a Döner. I don't have an Answer, I just thought I'd share my thoughts.
      - eru 10y ago
        Döner in Germany is like Curry in Britain. Ie they are both enthusiastically adopted and adapted to local mores. Some of the changes even make it back to Turkey and India. Hamburger are about as American as it gets. Of course, the name gives the origin away.
        dalu 10y ago
        Yeah I thought it was ham burger as burger with ham
        eru 10y ago
        Alas, there's no ham on them burgers.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - ido 10y ago
    I find the attitude of "if you consider yourself both Turkish & German you're not really German" disappointing. My wife & I are immigrants in Germany (and pay a lot more taxes than the median German family, draw far fewer benefits, speak German and have plenty of German friends and acquaintances) and our son was born in Germany. I would expect him to believe himself to be German when he grows up, but would also see it as unfortunate if he doesn't also see himself as Israeli & Austrian at the same time.
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      I can see how is it disappointing. However you can also see how broad inclusion can be disappointing for "German Germans". You see, as an Israeli you have more flexibility and perhaps specific community support and, being a minority, additional lobbying power. Whereas "German German", while being exactly same German as you (or your son), lacks all that and therefore at a disadvantage. They become "just Germans". These incentives lead to fragmentation of core German identity: everybody gains from declaring them as "German and Somebody Else". But fragmented society is a liability how we saw in Syria or Bosnia or many other troubled countries. Therefore, while "German Germans" and "non-German Germans" should be equal almost everywhere, the former should have distinct weight at shaping society culture and policy. It's just more natural that way. Disclaimer: I'm not a German but from a country that have similar issues.
    - cb18 10y ago
      The native populations of Germany and Austria are the same genetically, and assuming Ashkenazi, then also pretty similar. So why would you like your son to see himself as "Austrian" and "Israeli" just because his parents lived there, instead of simply as having a genetic heritage in the region that goes back millennia before the modern conception of the German and Austrian State?
      - lispm 10y ago
        What are you talking about? Germany over the thousands of years has seen many immigration waves - as many as Germans were all over Europe. You have zero knowledge of European history. Carl Zuckmayer: Vom Rhein - noch dazu. Vom Rhein. Von der großen Völkermühle. Von der Kelter Europas! Ruhiger Und jetzt stellen Sie sich doch mal Ihre Ahnenreihe vor - seit Christi Geburt. Da war ein römischer Feldhauptmann, ein schwarzer Kerl, braun wie ne reife Olive, der hat einem blonden Mädchen Latein beigebracht. Und dann kam ein jüdischer Gewürzhändler in die Familie, das war ein ernster Mensch, der ist noch vor der Heirat Christ geworden und hat die katholische Haustradition begründet. Und dann kam ein griechischer Arzt dazu, oder ein keltischer Legionär, ein Graubündner Landsknecht, ein schwedischer Reiter, ein Soldat Napoleons, ein desertierter Kosak, ein Schwarzwälder Flözer, ein wandernder Müllerbursch vom Elsaß, ein dicker Schiffer aus Holland, ein Magyar, ein Pandur, ein Offizier aus Wien, ein französischer Schauspieler, ein böhmischer Musikant - das hat alles am Rhein gelebt, gerauft, gesoffen und gesungen und Kinder gezeugt - und - und der der Goethe, der kam aus demselben Topf, und der Beethoven und der Gutenberg, und der Matthias Grünewald und - ach was, schau im Lexikon nach. Es waren die Besten, mein Lieber! Die Besten der Welt! Und warum? Weil sich die Völker dort vermischt haben. Vermischt - wie die Wasser aus Quellen und Bächen und Flüssen, damit sie zu einem großen, lebendigen Strom zusammenrinnen. Vom Rhein - das heißt: vom Abendland. Das ist natürlicher Adel. Das ist Rasse. Seien Sie stolz darauf, Hartmann - und hängen Sie die Papiere Ihrer Großmutter in den Abtritt. Prost.
  - nindalf 10y ago
    That's no different from 2nd and 3rd generation Asian-Americans identifying their race as Asian and their nationality as American. I don't think they're any less American than Caucasians who've been there for 2 or 3 generations more. To your specific example, I'd say football is a pretty big part of German culture and there are footballers who identify with the country they came from but feel more comfortable in a German shirt. They choose to represent Germany for that reason, becoming a massive part of that culture. Now would you say that Mesut Özil or Sami Khedira or Emre Can or Jerome Boateng aren't that German just because they remember where their family came from? If you do, its interesting because others in Germany share that opinion. For example, one leader of a political party said a couple of days ago that Boateng remained "alien" despite his popularity and that people would not want "someone like Boateng as a neighbor." [1] [1] - http://www.dw.com/en/afd-provokes-anger-with-racist-comments-about-german-national-team-player/a-19291393 http://www.dw.com/en/afd-provokes-anger-with-racist-comments...
  - herbst 10y ago
    The issue is rather that others identify them as Turks and so it gets part of their identity.
- cb18 10y ago
  If an Icelandic couple moves to Africa, learns a Bantu language, and has a child who then also learns the language, is the child then a Bantu? You can be non-Caucasian and still be German. A country is the spirit and character of a people. That's what makes a country what it is. Not political boundaries on a map. And groups of people don't just take on a new spirit and character if they move into new political boundaries en masse. The spirit and character of a people comes from their DNA. And their DNA comes from their environment over many thousands of years. If the majority of the population in Germany were to be African or Arab, do you really think Germany would retain it's particular character that makes it European and German? No of course not! You would have to be insane to think that it would. Were that to come to pass, Germany would look a lot more like countries in Africa or the Middle East than a European country. With the recent migrant madness we are already seeing troubling signs of this, with loads of horrendous crimes hitherto unknown in Europe. It's not just the excess of crime that doesn't bode well, but that these foreign populations, even into 2nd 3rd generation receive welfare at much higher rates than the general population. Why would it ever be a good idea to take in loads of immigrants who are a net drain on the economy in multiple ways? Europe can't babysit the world in this way. Not only does make it make no sense, but it is unsustainable, the time at which our welfare states have become totally dismantled from this looting is rapidly approaching. Many resources are finite. Why should grandparents who spent a life time contributing to the system have their benefits cut, so politicians can try to import future voters in order to extend their reign? It's madness. It is destroying the western world. So, that's a long-winded way of saying, no a "non-caucasian" or anything else but an ethnic European, ethnic German cannot be a "german." Maybe someone else is a citizen of the Bundesrepublik. But that is just a piece of paper symbolizing an abstract system of agreements. The biological reality of what makes the German people what they are and by extent what Germany is, is another thing entirely. --- I'm sure all of the Germans of Turkish familial origin Funny you picked the Turks, who are notoriously unintegrated in Germany. Just like all the muslims across Europe of course, but some of the Turks have been here since the 1970s. So it makes people take notice and say, "uh oh!" In fact, this was more or less the reason for Angela Merkel's dictum years back saying "Multiculturalism has failed."
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    I won't go into too much detail, but this is just flat-out wrong. "German-ness" is emphatically not genetic. "spirit and character" are not either. You're just trying to have a "filthy migrants are all criminals" whine dressed up as something other than bigotry.
eru 10y ago
Nah, lots of people who are bona-fide Germans these days had ancestors that were considered eg Polish a generation or two ago. But you are right, Germany does a pretty bad job at integrating newcomers.
- ItendToDisagree 10y ago
  We are all Prussians!
  - eru 10y ago
    Come to think of it, the old Prussia probably did a better job. Eg when they welcomed the Huguenots after the French kicked 'em out. "Preußen und die Marktwirtschaft" (whttps://www.amazon.de/Preu%C3%9Fen-die-Marktwirtschaft-Erhardt-B%C3%B6decker/dp/3789281875 https://www.amazon.de/Preu%C3%9Fen-die-Marktwirtschaft-Erhar...) is a fun read, if you don't mind taking it with a pinch of salt or two. The author argues how much more efficient the Prussian state was compared to modern Germany. Eg 200 years ago they were devastated from the defeat by Napoleon but managed to invent and establish the modern university that everyone copied---and all that with less public servants for the whole of Prussia than a medium sized town these days.
- cb18 10y ago
  The genetic distance between a German and an African is many, many multiples of the genetic distance between a German and a Pole.
  - 1stop 10y ago
    There is vastly more generic similarity than difference... racism is never about genetics, it's always about shared (or not) culture. The genetic arguement is completely bogus, shouldn't you be removing all the dogs first before you start splitting difference between humans?
  - fucking_tragedy 10y ago
    It's almost as if the basis of racism is completely arbitrary and unfounded!
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
Seemed to work for the US.
ashitlerferad 10y ago
It is probably about time to get rid of nations within the EU and just call the place Europe. Soon after we can get rid of the other nations and call this place Earth.

by cb18 10y ago

ItendToDisagree 10y ago

Yes. I'm sure all of the Germans of Turkish familial origin would agree... They aren't Germans. Even though they were born in Germany and speak German. You can be non-Caucasian and still be German. That is what you were getting at right?

adrianN 10y ago
Many of the Germans of Turkish familial origin still self-identify as Turks, not as German, or as both Turkish and German, in the second or third generation. You certainly can be German and non-caucasian, but you actually have to believe yourself to be German and be part of German culture.
- ItendToDisagree 10y ago
  Fairly sure that most Americans of Japanese ancestry consider themselves both Japanese and American. Same goes for most other ethnicity. Does that make them any LESS American? Many Puerto Ricans consider themselves both Puerto Rican AND American. This is especially interesting given Puerto Rico is an American territory yet it is considered a different cultural group. Germans of Turkish descent are in fact still Turkish regardless of generation. Similarly Germans of Chinese descent are still Chinese while also being German. Your final sentence is the nut. The rest of it is just discrimination (small d) of people into cultural groups. (Edit: As an aside... Is Doner German culture? Or is it Turkish?)
  - ATsch 10y ago
    Döner is a traditional Turkish meal. It is sold as a dish on rice, on a bread, or in a wrap. However, the Döner Kebab as it is known in Germany today originated with immigrants in Berlin. I don't think it's easy to say what culture it is. The German Döner is still very similar to the traditional meal, but "Eating a Döner" has engrained itself deeply into German culture. Normally, when eating foreign food, you'd call it by the country it comes from. If you order a burrito, you're "Eating Mexican", if you order a Pasta you're "eating Italian" and if you are having sushi you are "eating Asian". But you don't "eat Turkish" when eating a Döner. I don't have an Answer, I just thought I'd share my thoughts.
    - eru 10y ago
      Döner in Germany is like Curry in Britain. Ie they are both enthusiastically adopted and adapted to local mores. Some of the changes even make it back to Turkey and India. Hamburger are about as American as it gets. Of course, the name gives the origin away.
      - dalu 10y ago
        Yeah I thought it was ham burger as burger with ham
        eru 10y ago
        Alas, there's no ham on them burgers.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- ido 10y ago
  I find the attitude of "if you consider yourself both Turkish & German you're not really German" disappointing. My wife & I are immigrants in Germany (and pay a lot more taxes than the median German family, draw far fewer benefits, speak German and have plenty of German friends and acquaintances) and our son was born in Germany. I would expect him to believe himself to be German when he grows up, but would also see it as unfortunate if he doesn't also see himself as Israeli & Austrian at the same time.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    I can see how is it disappointing. However you can also see how broad inclusion can be disappointing for "German Germans". You see, as an Israeli you have more flexibility and perhaps specific community support and, being a minority, additional lobbying power. Whereas "German German", while being exactly same German as you (or your son), lacks all that and therefore at a disadvantage. They become "just Germans". These incentives lead to fragmentation of core German identity: everybody gains from declaring them as "German and Somebody Else". But fragmented society is a liability how we saw in Syria or Bosnia or many other troubled countries. Therefore, while "German Germans" and "non-German Germans" should be equal almost everywhere, the former should have distinct weight at shaping society culture and policy. It's just more natural that way. Disclaimer: I'm not a German but from a country that have similar issues.
  - cb18 10y ago
    The native populations of Germany and Austria are the same genetically, and assuming Ashkenazi, then also pretty similar. So why would you like your son to see himself as "Austrian" and "Israeli" just because his parents lived there, instead of simply as having a genetic heritage in the region that goes back millennia before the modern conception of the German and Austrian State?
    - lispm 10y ago
      What are you talking about? Germany over the thousands of years has seen many immigration waves - as many as Germans were all over Europe. You have zero knowledge of European history. Carl Zuckmayer: Vom Rhein - noch dazu. Vom Rhein. Von der großen Völkermühle. Von der Kelter Europas! Ruhiger Und jetzt stellen Sie sich doch mal Ihre Ahnenreihe vor - seit Christi Geburt. Da war ein römischer Feldhauptmann, ein schwarzer Kerl, braun wie ne reife Olive, der hat einem blonden Mädchen Latein beigebracht. Und dann kam ein jüdischer Gewürzhändler in die Familie, das war ein ernster Mensch, der ist noch vor der Heirat Christ geworden und hat die katholische Haustradition begründet. Und dann kam ein griechischer Arzt dazu, oder ein keltischer Legionär, ein Graubündner Landsknecht, ein schwedischer Reiter, ein Soldat Napoleons, ein desertierter Kosak, ein Schwarzwälder Flözer, ein wandernder Müllerbursch vom Elsaß, ein dicker Schiffer aus Holland, ein Magyar, ein Pandur, ein Offizier aus Wien, ein französischer Schauspieler, ein böhmischer Musikant - das hat alles am Rhein gelebt, gerauft, gesoffen und gesungen und Kinder gezeugt - und - und der der Goethe, der kam aus demselben Topf, und der Beethoven und der Gutenberg, und der Matthias Grünewald und - ach was, schau im Lexikon nach. Es waren die Besten, mein Lieber! Die Besten der Welt! Und warum? Weil sich die Völker dort vermischt haben. Vermischt - wie die Wasser aus Quellen und Bächen und Flüssen, damit sie zu einem großen, lebendigen Strom zusammenrinnen. Vom Rhein - das heißt: vom Abendland. Das ist natürlicher Adel. Das ist Rasse. Seien Sie stolz darauf, Hartmann - und hängen Sie die Papiere Ihrer Großmutter in den Abtritt. Prost.
- nindalf 10y ago
  That's no different from 2nd and 3rd generation Asian-Americans identifying their race as Asian and their nationality as American. I don't think they're any less American than Caucasians who've been there for 2 or 3 generations more. To your specific example, I'd say football is a pretty big part of German culture and there are footballers who identify with the country they came from but feel more comfortable in a German shirt. They choose to represent Germany for that reason, becoming a massive part of that culture. Now would you say that Mesut Özil or Sami Khedira or Emre Can or Jerome Boateng aren't that German just because they remember where their family came from? If you do, its interesting because others in Germany share that opinion. For example, one leader of a political party said a couple of days ago that Boateng remained "alien" despite his popularity and that people would not want "someone like Boateng as a neighbor." [1] [1] - http://www.dw.com/en/afd-provokes-anger-with-racist-comments-about-german-national-team-player/a-19291393 http://www.dw.com/en/afd-provokes-anger-with-racist-comments...
- herbst 10y ago
  The issue is rather that others identify them as Turks and so it gets part of their identity.
cb18 10y ago
If an Icelandic couple moves to Africa, learns a Bantu language, and has a child who then also learns the language, is the child then a Bantu? You can be non-Caucasian and still be German. A country is the spirit and character of a people. That's what makes a country what it is. Not political boundaries on a map. And groups of people don't just take on a new spirit and character if they move into new political boundaries en masse. The spirit and character of a people comes from their DNA. And their DNA comes from their environment over many thousands of years. If the majority of the population in Germany were to be African or Arab, do you really think Germany would retain it's particular character that makes it European and German? No of course not! You would have to be insane to think that it would. Were that to come to pass, Germany would look a lot more like countries in Africa or the Middle East than a European country. With the recent migrant madness we are already seeing troubling signs of this, with loads of horrendous crimes hitherto unknown in Europe. It's not just the excess of crime that doesn't bode well, but that these foreign populations, even into 2nd 3rd generation receive welfare at much higher rates than the general population. Why would it ever be a good idea to take in loads of immigrants who are a net drain on the economy in multiple ways? Europe can't babysit the world in this way. Not only does make it make no sense, but it is unsustainable, the time at which our welfare states have become totally dismantled from this looting is rapidly approaching. Many resources are finite. Why should grandparents who spent a life time contributing to the system have their benefits cut, so politicians can try to import future voters in order to extend their reign? It's madness. It is destroying the western world. So, that's a long-winded way of saying, no a "non-caucasian" or anything else but an ethnic European, ethnic German cannot be a "german." Maybe someone else is a citizen of the Bundesrepublik. But that is just a piece of paper symbolizing an abstract system of agreements. The biological reality of what makes the German people what they are and by extent what Germany is, is another thing entirely. --- I'm sure all of the Germans of Turkish familial origin Funny you picked the Turks, who are notoriously unintegrated in Germany. Just like all the muslims across Europe of course, but some of the Turks have been here since the 1970s. So it makes people take notice and say, "uh oh!" In fact, this was more or less the reason for Angela Merkel's dictum years back saying "Multiculturalism has failed."
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  I won't go into too much detail, but this is just flat-out wrong. "German-ness" is emphatically not genetic. "spirit and character" are not either. You're just trying to have a "filthy migrants are all criminals" whine dressed up as something other than bigotry.

eru 10y ago

Nah, lots of people who are bona-fide Germans these days had ancestors that were considered eg Polish a generation or two ago. But you are right, Germany does a pretty bad job at integrating newcomers.

ItendToDisagree 10y ago
We are all Prussians!
- eru 10y ago
  Come to think of it, the old Prussia probably did a better job. Eg when they welcomed the Huguenots after the French kicked 'em out. "Preußen und die Marktwirtschaft" (whttps://www.amazon.de/Preu%C3%9Fen-die-Marktwirtschaft-Erhardt-B%C3%B6decker/dp/3789281875 https://www.amazon.de/Preu%C3%9Fen-die-Marktwirtschaft-Erhar...) is a fun read, if you don't mind taking it with a pinch of salt or two. The author argues how much more efficient the Prussian state was compared to modern Germany. Eg 200 years ago they were devastated from the defeat by Napoleon but managed to invent and establish the modern university that everyone copied---and all that with less public servants for the whole of Prussia than a medium sized town these days.
cb18 10y ago
The genetic distance between a German and an African is many, many multiples of the genetic distance between a German and a Pole.
- 1stop 10y ago
  There is vastly more generic similarity than difference... racism is never about genetics, it's always about shared (or not) culture. The genetic arguement is completely bogus, shouldn't you be removing all the dogs first before you start splitting difference between humans?
- fucking_tragedy 10y ago
  It's almost as if the basis of racism is completely arbitrary and unfounded!

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

Seemed to work for the US.

ashitlerferad 10y ago

It is probably about time to get rid of nations within the EU and just call the place Europe. Soon after we can get rid of the other nations and call this place Earth.