4 ms·

It really is shockingly similar and a lot of the arguments against net neutrality try to dismiss it as applying "laws made for railroads" to the Internet. Back

by imgabe 10y ago

It really is shockingly similar and a lot of the arguments against net neutrality try to dismiss it as applying "laws made for railroads" to the Internet. Back when oil was getting to be useful, lots of people discovered it. Usually, it was in a remote area. The only way to make money off it was to get it to a refinery and then the market. Standard Oil bullied and bribed the railroads into giving them preferential rates and charging high rates for competitors. It's exactly like what cable companies would like to do by subverting net neutrality, give preferential treatment to the traffic that profits them most. It's just information instead of oil, which is even more insidious since it can control the public discourse.

ikeboy 10y ago
(My own views align closely with http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/we-dont-need-net-neutrality-we-need-competition/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/we-dont-need-net-... and http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-13/forget-net-neutrality-what-americans-need-is-net-competition http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-13/forget-net...) Do you have any evidence that cable companies wanted to charge for preferential treatment for traffic? I've seen that claim repeated a lot but never with evidence.
- throwaway_exer 10y ago
  > Do you have any evidence that cable companies wanted to charge for preferential treatment Did you read your own links? Netflix is being charged to pass bandwidth to residential customers because of a structural lack of competition.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Netflix is the canonical example. A few years ago YouTube got similar treatment on Time Warner -- they funneled everything to a YouTube point of presence on the TWC network that was over saturated. You could modify DNS and use and alternate URL and watch 1080p video with no lag. Verizon also started limiting aggregate Netflix traffic. Through conincidence, it happened to start happening when they launched a video service.
  - ikeboy 10y ago
    What happened with netflix wasn't covered under net neutrality anyway (as the links above point out), and they weren't being charged for prioritization, nor were they discriminated against.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      This isn't a net neutrality discussion. It's about monopolistic behavior.
      - ikeboy 10y ago
        I responded to a comment saying "It's exactly like what cable companies would like to do by subverting net neutrality, give preferential treatment to the traffic that profits them most."
AnthonyMouse 10y ago
The thing is, cable is more like the railroad than it is like Standard Oil. Petroleum isn't at all like a natural monopoly. It took a lot of corruption and bribery for Standard Oil to keep competition at bay. But nobody is really stepping forward to lay residential fiber. Google is the exception and it's because they're one of the only companies with enough money to survive a war of attrition with the incumbents, and even then it's only in a handful of places. It's prohibitively expensive to have twelve companies each run a different strand of fiber to every house. And you only need one. The key is to a) get one instead of zero and then b) put competition on the other end of the fiber. Have one company (or municipality) be the regulated monopoly that provides only the physical layer, and then let all willing providers compete to terminate the fiber and provide internet/TV/phone service. Separating the natural monopoly (the physical layer) from over the top services is the key to preventing monopoly abuse. The entity that does that should do only that.
- colechristensen 10y ago
  There _are_ places where small companies are stepping up to place residential fiber. http://fiber.usinternet.com/ http://fiber.usinternet.com/
  - AnthonyMouse 10y ago
    Sure, on a few dozen streets in the city center in a place without build out requirements. But what do we do about the suburbs?
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Those are exceptions that prove the rule.
  - tomkinstinch 10y ago
    In Rochester, NY we are fortunate to have a local company competing with Time Warner by offering gigabit fiber to the home[1]. The local company is hugely popular, and based on their rate of expansion, very successful. When my house was built in 1890 it did not have electricity, and all rooms were illuminated by gas lights. As of last year, it has gigabit fiber. Infrastructure can change. It helps to have locals take action, and citizens have to be vocal. 1. https://greenlightnetworks.com/ https://greenlightnetworks.com/
Spooky23 10y ago
The people making those statements know that. Any "captain of industry" worth his salt wants to be like a Rockeffeler or a railroad baron. Hell, 5-6 generations on, Rockeffelers are still filthy rich.

by imgabe 10y ago

ikeboy 10y ago

(My own views align closely with http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/we-dont-need-net-neutrality-we-need-competition/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/we-dont-need-net-... and http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-13/forget-net-neutrality-what-americans-need-is-net-competition http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-13/forget-net...) Do you have any evidence that cable companies wanted to charge for preferential treatment for traffic? I've seen that claim repeated a lot but never with evidence.

throwaway_exer 10y ago
> Do you have any evidence that cable companies wanted to charge for preferential treatment Did you read your own links? Netflix is being charged to pass bandwidth to residential customers because of a structural lack of competition.
Spooky23 10y ago
Netflix is the canonical example. A few years ago YouTube got similar treatment on Time Warner -- they funneled everything to a YouTube point of presence on the TWC network that was over saturated. You could modify DNS and use and alternate URL and watch 1080p video with no lag. Verizon also started limiting aggregate Netflix traffic. Through conincidence, it happened to start happening when they launched a video service.
- ikeboy 10y ago
  What happened with netflix wasn't covered under net neutrality anyway (as the links above point out), and they weren't being charged for prioritization, nor were they discriminated against.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    This isn't a net neutrality discussion. It's about monopolistic behavior.
    - ikeboy 10y ago
      I responded to a comment saying "It's exactly like what cable companies would like to do by subverting net neutrality, give preferential treatment to the traffic that profits them most."

AnthonyMouse 10y ago

The thing is, cable is more like the railroad than it is like Standard Oil. Petroleum isn't at all like a natural monopoly. It took a lot of corruption and bribery for Standard Oil to keep competition at bay. But nobody is really stepping forward to lay residential fiber. Google is the exception and it's because they're one of the only companies with enough money to survive a war of attrition with the incumbents, and even then it's only in a handful of places. It's prohibitively expensive to have twelve companies each run a different strand of fiber to every house. And you only need one. The key is to a) get one instead of zero and then b) put competition on the other end of the fiber. Have one company (or municipality) be the regulated monopoly that provides only the physical layer, and then let all willing providers compete to terminate the fiber and provide internet/TV/phone service. Separating the natural monopoly (the physical layer) from over the top services is the key to preventing monopoly abuse. The entity that does that should do only that.

colechristensen 10y ago
There _are_ places where small companies are stepping up to place residential fiber. http://fiber.usinternet.com/ http://fiber.usinternet.com/
- AnthonyMouse 10y ago
  Sure, on a few dozen streets in the city center in a place without build out requirements. But what do we do about the suburbs?
- Spooky23 10y ago
  Those are exceptions that prove the rule.
- tomkinstinch 10y ago
  In Rochester, NY we are fortunate to have a local company competing with Time Warner by offering gigabit fiber to the home[1]. The local company is hugely popular, and based on their rate of expansion, very successful. When my house was built in 1890 it did not have electricity, and all rooms were illuminated by gas lights. As of last year, it has gigabit fiber. Infrastructure can change. It helps to have locals take action, and citizens have to be vocal. 1. https://greenlightnetworks.com/ https://greenlightnetworks.com/

Spooky23 10y ago

The people making those statements know that. Any "captain of industry" worth his salt wants to be like a Rockeffeler or a railroad baron. Hell, 5-6 generations on, Rockeffelers are still filthy rich.