4 ms·

Exactly this. I moved to Germany around 6 years ago, and I've noticed huge differences in cost of living just in the few cities I've lived in (southern Germany

Exactly this. I moved to Germany around 6 years ago, and I've noticed huge differences in cost of living just in the few cities I've lived in (southern Germany was the most expensive i.e. Munich). Also, as someone who has lived in the US and Argentina, and has spent a good portion of life living in the "poorer class", I have to say being "poor" in Germany seems lightyears better than it is in those two countries, although I haven't experienced being poor here, only in those others. The first time I saw a German ghetto I thought it was joke. A German ghetto is a pretty nice place to live in most countries, in the US it'd be like living in a multicultural poorer neighborhood where everyone has healthcare and there's no guns or violent crime. Anyway, it still amazes me sometimes how far Germans go with the "lets help the world" mentality. One of the first things, I got asked after arriving in Germany was if I wanted Hartz IV? I already had a fulltime well-paying job, but hey I wouldn't start for a couple months so they wanted to give me money until then! What country does that? So sure, you pay huge taxes, you get safer cities and even "poor" people have apartments, healthcare, food, tv, internet, etc. This isn't to say all is perfect. There's plenty of things wrong in Germany (aka 6 month winters), but on the issue of "quality of life as a poor person", they are rocking it IMHO.

rbehrends 10y ago
> Anyway, it still amazes me sometimes how far Germans go with the "lets help the world" mentality. One of the first things, I got asked after arriving in Germany was if I wanted Hartz IV? I already had a fulltime well-paying job, but hey I wouldn't start for a couple months so they wanted to give me money until then! What country does that? So sure, you pay huge taxes, you get safer cities and even "poor" people have apartments, healthcare, food, tv, internet, etc. I find that a bit surprising; one of the downsides of Hartz IV (Germany's guaranteed minimum income scheme) is the hardnosed bureaucracy that tends to go with it. That said, GMI schemes are generally pretty cheap; the welfare budgets of European countries are typically dominated by healthcare spending and pensions, not ensuring that everybody has a minimum standard of living, which generally makes up a relatively small fraction of public spending. As Felix Salmon wrote a while ago [1]: "At the same time, the amount of money that we need to spend in order to feed and clothe ourselves has never been lower. In much of the developed world, basic calorific and shelter needs have been taken care of, with their costs converging to zero. In dozens of countries, we have largely solved the physiological needs at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid, and indeed the safety needs one level up. Extending that security to all citizens is a matter of political will, not a question of adequate resources." [1] http://fusion.net/story/197297/star-treks-utopia-is-already-here/ http://fusion.net/story/197297/star-treks-utopia-is-already-...
tajen 10y ago
> What country does that? In France, if you're not planned to have revenue for more than 3 months, you get the RSA+APL which is 650€pm (source: I've had it when my startup had no revenue yet), even if you have a lot of money in the bank or if you're not French. The minimum salary is ~1000€. That's if you've depleted your unemployment benefits (80% salary for 2 years, if you've worked for 2 years). RSA was just enough for me for food+housing, no clothes or extras.
- wprapido 10y ago
  gross minimum wage in france is about 1500EUR
  - tajen 10y ago
    Net minimum is 1150. What's the use of saying the gross salary, when foreigners don't know the amount of taxes and can't compare it to RSA?
    - wprapido 10y ago
      that's true. but, US salaries are also expressed gross, that's why i wrote gross french minimum wage
jacquesm 10y ago
> (aka 6 month winters) That's Canada, not Germany.
- earleybird 10y ago
  Perhaps, if you're not on a coast
- eru 10y ago
  At least you'll have a harder time catching skin cancer than in Australia.
stcredzero 10y ago
The first time I saw a German ghetto I thought it was joke. A German ghetto is a pretty nice place to live in most countries I've seen video from the inside of the cells in a Scandinavian prison. Those looked nicer than the apartment my friend spent her sabbatical in, in Chicago. And she's a college professor!
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  You're probably talking about Norway, which is in a unique position, because it has 5 million people (one big american city) in an area bigger than California and a good source of oil. It's kind of like alaska, only populated by nicer people.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    Norway is 148,718 mi² and California is 163,696 mi² but you're right in that they're relatively close in size.
  - kuzmin 10y ago
    Swedish prisons are very similar.
- lispm 10y ago
  http://www.vice.com/read/german-prisons-are-kinder-gentler-and-safer-than-the-ones-in-america-617 http://www.vice.com/read/german-prisons-are-kinder-gentler-a...

rbehrends 10y ago

> Anyway, it still amazes me sometimes how far Germans go with the "lets help the world" mentality. One of the first things, I got asked after arriving in Germany was if I wanted Hartz IV? I already had a fulltime well-paying job, but hey I wouldn't start for a couple months so they wanted to give me money until then! What country does that? So sure, you pay huge taxes, you get safer cities and even "poor" people have apartments, healthcare, food, tv, internet, etc. I find that a bit surprising; one of the downsides of Hartz IV (Germany's guaranteed minimum income scheme) is the hardnosed bureaucracy that tends to go with it. That said, GMI schemes are generally pretty cheap; the welfare budgets of European countries are typically dominated by healthcare spending and pensions, not ensuring that everybody has a minimum standard of living, which generally makes up a relatively small fraction of public spending. As Felix Salmon wrote a while ago [1]: "At the same time, the amount of money that we need to spend in order to feed and clothe ourselves has never been lower. In much of the developed world, basic calorific and shelter needs have been taken care of, with their costs converging to zero. In dozens of countries, we have largely solved the physiological needs at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid, and indeed the safety needs one level up. Extending that security to all citizens is a matter of political will, not a question of adequate resources." [1] http://fusion.net/story/197297/star-treks-utopia-is-already-here/ http://fusion.net/story/197297/star-treks-utopia-is-already-...

tajen 10y ago

> What country does that? In France, if you're not planned to have revenue for more than 3 months, you get the RSA+APL which is 650€pm (source: I've had it when my startup had no revenue yet), even if you have a lot of money in the bank or if you're not French. The minimum salary is ~1000€. That's if you've depleted your unemployment benefits (80% salary for 2 years, if you've worked for 2 years). RSA was just enough for me for food+housing, no clothes or extras.

wprapido 10y ago
gross minimum wage in france is about 1500EUR
- tajen 10y ago
  Net minimum is 1150. What's the use of saying the gross salary, when foreigners don't know the amount of taxes and can't compare it to RSA?
  - wprapido 10y ago
    that's true. but, US salaries are also expressed gross, that's why i wrote gross french minimum wage

jacquesm 10y ago

> (aka 6 month winters) That's Canada, not Germany.

earleybird 10y ago
Perhaps, if you're not on a coast
eru 10y ago
At least you'll have a harder time catching skin cancer than in Australia.

stcredzero 10y ago

The first time I saw a German ghetto I thought it was joke. A German ghetto is a pretty nice place to live in most countries I've seen video from the inside of the cells in a Scandinavian prison. Those looked nicer than the apartment my friend spent her sabbatical in, in Chicago. And she's a college professor!

Mithaldu 10y ago
You're probably talking about Norway, which is in a unique position, because it has 5 million people (one big american city) in an area bigger than California and a good source of oil. It's kind of like alaska, only populated by nicer people.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  Norway is 148,718 mi² and California is 163,696 mi² but you're right in that they're relatively close in size.
- kuzmin 10y ago
  Swedish prisons are very similar.
lispm 10y ago
http://www.vice.com/read/german-prisons-are-kinder-gentler-and-safer-than-the-ones-in-america-617 http://www.vice.com/read/german-prisons-are-kinder-gentler-a...