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I think it's important to remember that Hitler didn't exactly run with the Holocaust as his campaign. So if you compare the relatively benign climate that broug

I think it's important to remember that Hitler didn't exactly run with the Holocaust as his campaign. So if you compare the relatively benign climate that brought him to power, and see something similar today, it's worth bringing up.

ikeboy 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain."
- orblivion 10y ago
  Then why was the holocaust such a shock to people? Perhaps they just didn't read the book.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Note the scale '12,000-15,000' is ~1/1,000th of the actual death total in the Holocaust. It's the difference between 'first shoot all the lawyers' and 'just nuke their city's.' Soviet great purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge killed ~1 million people, holocaust killed 10x that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine killed ~15 million to 43 million, but that's poor policy not gas chambers. Closest direct comparison is Pol Pot which 'only' killed ~2 million people.
    - themartorana 10y ago
      It's funny that you don't hear Mao's name in many discussions of genocide. Is it that different that so many died one step removed from a direct order instead of on direct orders? Or that he had the good of the people in his heart even as tens of millions perished? Gas chambers were policy. I guess we greatly forgive incompetence, even as it's forced on people through brutality.
      - clevernickname 10y ago
        I find it strange that people proudly identify as "communists" without much stigma when the ideology was responsible for more death and suffering than national socialism. I guess it's a lot harder to remain ignorant of the Holocaust than of Stalin's purges.
        danharaj 10y ago
        Communism isn't one ideology. That's why it's called Marxim, or Leninism, or Stalinism, or Maoism, or anarchocommunism, or autonomous marxism, etc... And furthermore, ideology itself doesn't do anything, it's purely abstract. It's entirely possible for two people to adopt the same exact ideas and do things they mutually disagree about. There are communists who like Mao and stalin. I think they're gross because of it. I follow communist lines of thought that rejected all those dictators out of hand almost immediately. This sort of genetic fallacy is kind of weak.
        clevernickname 10y ago
        Would you extend that same generosity towards someone that identified as a facist? Or would you assume they are a jingoistic racist etc. and associate them with Nazi Germany and company? That's my point. One suffers guilt by association and its name itself has become a meaningless insult, the other does not and the mere suggestion that one could be against it draws to mind images of Cold War loonies. When in fact, both are (relatively speaking) sound families of ideologies.
        hartpuff 10y ago
        >>>I find it strange that people proudly identify as "communists" without much stigma Do you also find it strange that white people proudly identify as "Americans" without much stigma, even after centuries of racial atrocities by white Americans? > That's my point. Your point - as is the point of everyone who trots out the "Communism" is worse than Nazism old chestnut - is to minimise what the Nazis did. And there's only one reason people do that. The only surprise here, compared to every other Nazi sympathiser online making the same hackneyed "point", is you didn't claim Stalin killed 50/60/100 million people (any number higher than Hitler will do).
    - wcummings 10y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor killed 2.4 to 7.5 million
  - ikeboy 10y ago
    From what I've been told (certainly not an expert), people thought he wasn't serious at first. Then he took over the country and everyone was afraid of him. They also had a large brainwashing/ propaganda campaign to convince Germans to support them.
    - jacobush 10y ago
      Clearly Trump can't be serious about everything he says either.
      - ikeboy 10y ago
        The worst thing he's said is he'd kill families of terrorists, which is bad but nowhere near Mein Kampf. Also, he hasn't written them in a book, it's an off the cuff threat, which makes it less serious, in my opinion.
        jacobush 10y ago
        Given a choice, do you think Hitler would have taken to a book or off the cuff remarks and Twitter? Also, how many terrorists are there which the US could assaninate? Multiply that with 10 to accomodate with a family and you may up with a number not far off from the 10000 Hitler proposed.
        soundwave106 10y ago
        Hitler and the NSDAP was way more organized than Trump. The party had a well defined manifesto and their ideological bent was pretty clear. Hitler attempted to gain power through a coup before trying the legit route. Certainly there is definitely some routes of comparison between the rise of fascism in 1920s/1930s Europe and the right-wing-populist Trump phenomenon. However, in my mind the past politician that best approximates Donald Trump is Silvio Berlusconi. ("You never know", of course, but at this time I think some of the right wing political groups in Europe are better targets for 1920s-30s European fascism comparisons.)
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

ikeboy 10y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain."

orblivion 10y ago
Then why was the holocaust such a shock to people? Perhaps they just didn't read the book.
- Retric 10y ago
  Note the scale '12,000-15,000' is ~1/1,000th of the actual death total in the Holocaust. It's the difference between 'first shoot all the lawyers' and 'just nuke their city's.' Soviet great purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge killed ~1 million people, holocaust killed 10x that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine killed ~15 million to 43 million, but that's poor policy not gas chambers. Closest direct comparison is Pol Pot which 'only' killed ~2 million people.
  - themartorana 10y ago
    It's funny that you don't hear Mao's name in many discussions of genocide. Is it that different that so many died one step removed from a direct order instead of on direct orders? Or that he had the good of the people in his heart even as tens of millions perished? Gas chambers were policy. I guess we greatly forgive incompetence, even as it's forced on people through brutality.
    - clevernickname 10y ago
      I find it strange that people proudly identify as "communists" without much stigma when the ideology was responsible for more death and suffering than national socialism. I guess it's a lot harder to remain ignorant of the Holocaust than of Stalin's purges.
      - danharaj 10y ago
        Communism isn't one ideology. That's why it's called Marxim, or Leninism, or Stalinism, or Maoism, or anarchocommunism, or autonomous marxism, etc... And furthermore, ideology itself doesn't do anything, it's purely abstract. It's entirely possible for two people to adopt the same exact ideas and do things they mutually disagree about. There are communists who like Mao and stalin. I think they're gross because of it. I follow communist lines of thought that rejected all those dictators out of hand almost immediately. This sort of genetic fallacy is kind of weak.
        clevernickname 10y ago
        Would you extend that same generosity towards someone that identified as a facist? Or would you assume they are a jingoistic racist etc. and associate them with Nazi Germany and company? That's my point. One suffers guilt by association and its name itself has become a meaningless insult, the other does not and the mere suggestion that one could be against it draws to mind images of Cold War loonies. When in fact, both are (relatively speaking) sound families of ideologies.
        hartpuff 10y ago
        >>>I find it strange that people proudly identify as "communists" without much stigma Do you also find it strange that white people proudly identify as "Americans" without much stigma, even after centuries of racial atrocities by white Americans? > That's my point. Your point - as is the point of everyone who trots out the "Communism" is worse than Nazism old chestnut - is to minimise what the Nazis did. And there's only one reason people do that. The only surprise here, compared to every other Nazi sympathiser online making the same hackneyed "point", is you didn't claim Stalin killed 50/60/100 million people (any number higher than Hitler will do).
  - wcummings 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor killed 2.4 to 7.5 million
- ikeboy 10y ago
  From what I've been told (certainly not an expert), people thought he wasn't serious at first. Then he took over the country and everyone was afraid of him. They also had a large brainwashing/ propaganda campaign to convince Germans to support them.
  - jacobush 10y ago
    Clearly Trump can't be serious about everything he says either.
    - ikeboy 10y ago
      The worst thing he's said is he'd kill families of terrorists, which is bad but nowhere near Mein Kampf. Also, he hasn't written them in a book, it's an off the cuff threat, which makes it less serious, in my opinion.
      - jacobush 10y ago
        Given a choice, do you think Hitler would have taken to a book or off the cuff remarks and Twitter? Also, how many terrorists are there which the US could assaninate? Multiply that with 10 to accomodate with a family and you may up with a number not far off from the 10000 Hitler proposed.
        soundwave106 10y ago
        Hitler and the NSDAP was way more organized than Trump. The party had a well defined manifesto and their ideological bent was pretty clear. Hitler attempted to gain power through a coup before trying the legit route. Certainly there is definitely some routes of comparison between the rise of fascism in 1920s/1930s Europe and the right-wing-populist Trump phenomenon. However, in my mind the past politician that best approximates Donald Trump is Silvio Berlusconi. ("You never know", of course, but at this time I think some of the right wing political groups in Europe are better targets for 1920s-30s European fascism comparisons.)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]