4 ms·

Uber runs up against municipal taxi regulators. The DAO runs up against the SEC, DOJ, and state securities regulators, just to focus on the US cops. These peopl

Uber runs up against municipal taxi regulators. The DAO runs up against the SEC, DOJ, and state securities regulators, just to focus on the US cops. These people are a bit more serious than the City of Austin transit authority. As we've already seen in multiple cases, e.g., SatoshiDice, US regulators are aware of efforts to use profit-sharing contracts to raise funds, and view this (correctly) as a securities offering that should be registered unless there's a valid exemption. I was on a train some months ago and saw Preet Bharara reading the WSJ. At least I'm pretty sure it was him. How long do you think before a failed DAO crowdfunding ends up on the WSJ front page? If investors lose $100mm you can bet it will get that kind of publicity. Then it's just a matter of identifying the ideal defendant for symbolic punishment. If I were involved in slock.it, I would be careful not to travel through the US.

darawk 10y ago
The DAO exists outside of the laws of the United States. If the US curators are arrested, they will be replaced with non-US residents. This is the fundamental premise of decentralized systems. They are resilient to the interventions of governments. Bitcoin is definitely illegal in many places in the world, and occupies something of a gray area in the US. Yet, it operates just fine.
- bunkydoo 10y ago
  You've obviously never heard of extradition have you?
  - aminok 10y ago
    The US doesn't rule the world (yet).
    - zekevermillion 10y ago
      We don't and never will. Does that mean that US law is irrelevant? From from it.
      - aminok 10y ago
        US law is not applicable in some countries, because they maintain independence from the US legal system.
      - gst 10y ago
        Yes - US law is pretty irrelevant for most people who live outside the US and who don't do business with the US. How relevant is China's law for an US citizen who doesn't leave the country?
  - darawk 10y ago
    No country is going to extradite one of its own citizens for selling a financial product that doesn't happen to be approved by the US SEC and isn't a ponzi scheme / scam (the DAO may be a lot of things, but it is likely not an explicit confidence scheme). Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.
    - ubernostrum 10y ago
      Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason. Try setting up a business in one of them and let me know how you like the environment.
      - darawk 10y ago
        You're missing the point. The DAO does not care about the business climate of any particular country. The curators can reside in any country in the world and finance any company anywhere in the world.
        ubernostrum 10y ago
        So, set up in a repressive place with no extradition to the US, and see how well the "we operate under magical Internet law, it means you can't touch us" defense works there.
        darawk 10y ago
        Are you serious? Take a look around eastern europe. Take a look at international pharmacies that ship prescription drugs into the US. Take a look at chinese labs that ship research chemicals (recreational drugs) into the US. There are tons of examples of this happening in practice, in the real world, right now. All you have to do is look.
    - zekevermillion 10y ago
      But I am speaking exactly of the scenario where a dao project curator/contractor is perpetrating a financial crime. In that case, most countries would in fact extradite. If that's even necessary. I mention US laws not b/c I'm in favor of US imperialism but b/c I am familiar with these laws. I'm sure that there are other relevant jurisdictions that would frown upon financial crimes regardless of new age window dressing.
- zekevermillion 10y ago
  The "dao" here is not designed in a way that is truly decentralized. It is susceptible to certain centralizing flaws. There could be a dao that is designed in a way that resists censorship, that would be more interesting.
Vespasian 10y ago
Mulitply this times (countries in the world) and you got a legal abyss the DAO is looking into. At least german authorities will be interested since Slock.it UG is registered there. NB: They do not even have a website that is conformant with german law. This is not a big deal, however, it does not strengthen my confidence that these guys are able to create code able to manage a few hundred million dollars crowdfunded capital.

darawk 10y ago

The DAO exists outside of the laws of the United States. If the US curators are arrested, they will be replaced with non-US residents. This is the fundamental premise of decentralized systems. They are resilient to the interventions of governments. Bitcoin is definitely illegal in many places in the world, and occupies something of a gray area in the US. Yet, it operates just fine.

bunkydoo 10y ago
You've obviously never heard of extradition have you?
- aminok 10y ago
  The US doesn't rule the world (yet).
  - zekevermillion 10y ago
    We don't and never will. Does that mean that US law is irrelevant? From from it.
    - aminok 10y ago
      US law is not applicable in some countries, because they maintain independence from the US legal system.
    - gst 10y ago
      Yes - US law is pretty irrelevant for most people who live outside the US and who don't do business with the US. How relevant is China's law for an US citizen who doesn't leave the country?
- darawk 10y ago
  No country is going to extradite one of its own citizens for selling a financial product that doesn't happen to be approved by the US SEC and isn't a ponzi scheme / scam (the DAO may be a lot of things, but it is likely not an explicit confidence scheme). Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason.
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of countries who won't extradite to the US for any reason. Try setting up a business in one of them and let me know how you like the environment.
    - darawk 10y ago
      You're missing the point. The DAO does not care about the business climate of any particular country. The curators can reside in any country in the world and finance any company anywhere in the world.
      - ubernostrum 10y ago
        So, set up in a repressive place with no extradition to the US, and see how well the "we operate under magical Internet law, it means you can't touch us" defense works there.
        darawk 10y ago
        Are you serious? Take a look around eastern europe. Take a look at international pharmacies that ship prescription drugs into the US. Take a look at chinese labs that ship research chemicals (recreational drugs) into the US. There are tons of examples of this happening in practice, in the real world, right now. All you have to do is look.
  - zekevermillion 10y ago
    But I am speaking exactly of the scenario where a dao project curator/contractor is perpetrating a financial crime. In that case, most countries would in fact extradite. If that's even necessary. I mention US laws not b/c I'm in favor of US imperialism but b/c I am familiar with these laws. I'm sure that there are other relevant jurisdictions that would frown upon financial crimes regardless of new age window dressing.
zekevermillion 10y ago
The "dao" here is not designed in a way that is truly decentralized. It is susceptible to certain centralizing flaws. There could be a dao that is designed in a way that resists censorship, that would be more interesting.

Vespasian 10y ago

Mulitply this times (countries in the world) and you got a legal abyss the DAO is looking into. At least german authorities will be interested since Slock.it UG is registered there. NB: They do not even have a website that is conformant with german law. This is not a big deal, however, it does not strengthen my confidence that these guys are able to create code able to manage a few hundred million dollars crowdfunded capital.