7 ms·

To fix Android updates, hit OEMs where it hurts

54 points by shawndumas 10y ago

x1798DE 10y ago
I recently had a nagware popup telling me that my phone has already downloaded the 1.1 GB update, with only one option when clicked: "Restart and install"; once a day after midnight, it seems, the notification goes from a background notification to a foreground notification, and it's not until I enter this "restart and install" screen and hit the back button that the notification gets a "Later / Install" option to turn it back into a background notification. I don't know why LG is pulling this Microsoft Windows 10 nonsense on me, but I certainly wouldn't want to do anything to increase their incentive to do so, so I'd be pretty disappointed with any incentives for OEMs based on "actual adoption" rather than "availability of update".
- cm3 10y ago
  I'm no fan of gratuitous changes that introduce regressions, but with always connected devices it's crucial to have all security patches applied. That said, the solution seems to be to differentiate critical updates and feature updates and also split stuff into modules/packages.
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    I agree, I don't see why it shouldn't be similar to almost every other linux distro where most critical security updates are in modular packages. Frankly, I actually want the feature upgrade, but I certainly don't want to be tricked into it or told after it's already done that a big binary update blob is has been downloaded to my phone.
    - cm3 10y ago
      Also with a phone it's kinda bad if you want to use it for communication right now and have to take the risk and wait of applying the update.
    - dave2000 10y ago
      On Android it tends to default to automatically download updates but you can change this easily if you're in the minority of users who don't want enhancements and security fixes.
- dave2000 10y ago
  Not sure what os your phone is running but most people actually want phone updates as soon as possible. The reason people don't like Microsoft's Windows 10 upgrade tactics is that they do things like treat clicking the x to close the window as "yes, I'd love to have Windows 10", and the reason they don't want windows 10 is because of the risk it'll stop stuff from working. In all my experience of Android (and a little iOs) I've never heard of an update break anything.
  - skybrian 10y ago
    It might perform poorly though. Recent Android OS versions run poorly on older Nexus devices. (In particular the first gen Nexus 7.) Perhaps you didn't see it because you don't run hardware that old?
    - dave2000 10y ago
      The most recent Nexus 10 update I got didn't cause any problems. I think it's Apple upgrades which slow phones down.
  - MikusR 10y ago
    No, they treat clicking the x to close the window as "close the window".
petepete 10y ago
Why can't they push updates independently of the carrier?
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  Because adware subsidies and service lockin are a big part of carrier profit. Those require os level modifications but carriers don't want to maintain them
  - PostThisTooFast 10y ago
    They shouldn't require OS-level mods. That's where Google's incompetence has rendered Android a fraud.
drivingmenuts 10y ago
And that friends is why I went back to iOS. Once again I tried android and discovered that it was about two versions or more behind on the device I purchased.
- emsy 10y ago
  Don't know why you were downvoted. The fact that this topic still exists is a disgrace for Google (and Android users).
  - jakub_g 10y ago
    The problem is partially on the customer side (and I am part of it): typically new Android is available first (or at all) on newest aka most expensive devices. I don't necessarily need the most expensive device on market and I accept being a bit behind (which usually has an added value of not being a beta tester with a bunch of stupid regressions thrown at you). So I typically buy a one-Android-behind device, with great hardware for half price essentially.
    - lake99 10y ago
      I blame customers too, but for a different reason. I only reward manufacturers for devices that are well-represented on Cyanogenmod. Granted, someone like my mom has no hope of installing Cyanogenmod on her own, given that she knows nothing of Google or Android. But as long as people have friends or family to help them out with technical matters, they only have themselves to blame for devices whose software quickly go stale.
      - drivingmenuts 10y ago
        > But as long as people have friends or family to help them out with technical matters, they only have themselves to blame for devices whose software quickly go stale. That part makes no sense to me. People who don't have the technical skill to deal with upgrading are typically the people least interested in upgrading.
mfjordvald 10y ago
So I was a founding employee at OnePlus, I've since left but I've seen both how Cyanogen worked and the efforts that went into building the Android team at OnePlus after the relationship with Cyanogen soured. And really, it seems the author is a bit naive about how many Android OEMs actually work. Though I don't know about any revenue sharing, assuming it's there and that Google would take it away, would it incentivise faster updates? Definitely. Would it actually produce faster updates? Very much doubt it. At least for OnePlus it wasn't a lack of willingness, prioritisation, or ability. Both the Cyanogen team and the Paranoid Android team, which got hired later on, are highly skilled and have a lot of experience. Most of the time was spent integrating drivers from external providers such as Qualcomm and JDI. A lot of the time we were simply waiting for working drivers for the hardware we were using and other times we were waiting on bug fixes. For the biggest OEMs such as Samsung this might actually help them prioritise as they have a more customised OS and as such might spend more time there. Though I'd wager a guess that the reason they cannot move faster is also due to waiting on 3rd party companies not affected by this ad-sharing penalty and that they have a hard time hiring qualified people who know the android system well enough to move things faster.
- fauigerzigerk 10y ago
  Why does the Nexus line not have these driver issues?
  - benologist 10y ago
    nVidia are also keeping up with their Shield hardware.
    - mfjordvald 10y ago
      nVidia are using their own hardware so therefore they write their own drivers. Most OEMs outsource to Qualcomm or MediaTek.
  - mfjordvald 10y ago
    Cannot give a completely satisfying answer because I don't know. But running basically stock android and being Google helps a lot. One thing I forgot to mention but which usually adds a couple of weeks extra is the certification process you have to go through. Assuming Google can speed that up a bit for itself.
gtirloni 10y ago
The point is deep within the article and it's this: We've heard reports that Google shares ad revenue with its partners—if a customer buys a Verizon Samsung phone, performs a Google search, and clicks on an ad, Verizon and Samsung get a portion of that ad revenue. So, penalize partners by reducing or eliminating that revenue sharing if they don't push out updates. If an OEM exceeds the curve and stays up to date, increase the amount of revenue sharing.
bitL 10y ago
I wish OS upgrades were actually upgrades and not often downgrades. For example, KitKat handled SD card as a 1st class storage, allowing to reinstall apps on an SD card; Lollipop deletes an app from SD card, installs it on the main storage and forces you to manually move it to SD card after each update. I now have >100 pending updates as I am no longer willing to waste time on moving all apps to my 200GB SD card. Now Marshmallow has some silly approach obsoleting internal eMMC with an SD card, of course non-negotiably encrypted with the intent that nobody can extract music, video etc. that might be copyrighted. Next, Windows Phone 8.1 first removed the option to store HERE Maps on an SD card and 10 removed the app completely, which was about the only appeal to buy a WP device for me before HERE Maps were available on iOS & Android (and the new default map app is an annoying adware). I am one of those aesthetically unhappy people with flat interfaces - all major OSes shove ugly flatness down my throat. This is a major deal for somebody that has 100% perfect color vision and does professional photography - it's simply unbearable to look at phones these days. The only recluse on Android for me was to install Chinese ULauncher, making Android look like OS X Mavericks, but that phones home way too many things. Not even getting started on Windows 10 nagware which forced me to disable updates completely. Frankly, I hope Jolla survives (are they backed by HMD now?) and allows me to customize every aspect of my phone instead of accepting more and more restrictions "for my own good". Linux Mint + Sailfish could be a dream combo.
- digi_owl 10y ago
  Kitkat (aka 4.4), first class storage?! Far from it. Since maybe 3.1 Google had clamped down on honest to deity SD access, by changing up the permissions so that the card could only be read by non-system apps. Samsung and other OEMs routinely changed things back to the old behavior until 4.4 shipped, and Google seems to have arm twisted them into no longer doing so.
PostThisTooFast 10y ago
It is Google that should be shamed for building an OS without a proper abstraction layer or driver model to allow people to update the OS without breaking everything else. Creaky old Windows manages to run on millions of disparate configurations, but every update doesn't break the drivers. Google's incompetence has left the phone market in a pathetic state, as Apple hurtles backward under the inept hack Jony Ive, and the only viable alternative is a fragmented mess.

54 points by shawndumas 10y ago

I recently had a nagware popup telling me that my phone has already downloaded the 1.1 GB update, with only one option when clicked: "Restart and install"; once a day after midnight, it seems, the notification goes from a background notification to a foreground notification, and it's not until I enter this "restart and install" screen and hit the back button that the notification gets a "Later / Install" option to turn it back into a background notification. I don't know why LG is pulling this Microsoft Windows 10 nonsense on me, but I certainly wouldn't want to do anything to increase their incentive to do so, so I'd be pretty disappointed with any incentives for OEMs based on "actual adoption" rather than "availability of update".

cm3 10y ago
I'm no fan of gratuitous changes that introduce regressions, but with always connected devices it's crucial to have all security patches applied. That said, the solution seems to be to differentiate critical updates and feature updates and also split stuff into modules/packages.
- x1798DE 10y ago
  I agree, I don't see why it shouldn't be similar to almost every other linux distro where most critical security updates are in modular packages. Frankly, I actually want the feature upgrade, but I certainly don't want to be tricked into it or told after it's already done that a big binary update blob is has been downloaded to my phone.
  - cm3 10y ago
    Also with a phone it's kinda bad if you want to use it for communication right now and have to take the risk and wait of applying the update.
  - dave2000 10y ago
    On Android it tends to default to automatically download updates but you can change this easily if you're in the minority of users who don't want enhancements and security fixes.
dave2000 10y ago
Not sure what os your phone is running but most people actually want phone updates as soon as possible. The reason people don't like Microsoft's Windows 10 upgrade tactics is that they do things like treat clicking the x to close the window as "yes, I'd love to have Windows 10", and the reason they don't want windows 10 is because of the risk it'll stop stuff from working. In all my experience of Android (and a little iOs) I've never heard of an update break anything.
- skybrian 10y ago
  It might perform poorly though. Recent Android OS versions run poorly on older Nexus devices. (In particular the first gen Nexus 7.) Perhaps you didn't see it because you don't run hardware that old?
  - dave2000 10y ago
    The most recent Nexus 10 update I got didn't cause any problems. I think it's Apple upgrades which slow phones down.
- MikusR 10y ago
  No, they treat clicking the x to close the window as "close the window".

petepete 10y ago

Why can't they push updates independently of the carrier?

LoSboccacc 10y ago
Because adware subsidies and service lockin are a big part of carrier profit. Those require os level modifications but carriers don't want to maintain them
- PostThisTooFast 10y ago
  They shouldn't require OS-level mods. That's where Google's incompetence has rendered Android a fraud.

drivingmenuts 10y ago

And that friends is why I went back to iOS. Once again I tried android and discovered that it was about two versions or more behind on the device I purchased.

emsy 10y ago
Don't know why you were downvoted. The fact that this topic still exists is a disgrace for Google (and Android users).
- jakub_g 10y ago
  The problem is partially on the customer side (and I am part of it): typically new Android is available first (or at all) on newest aka most expensive devices. I don't necessarily need the most expensive device on market and I accept being a bit behind (which usually has an added value of not being a beta tester with a bunch of stupid regressions thrown at you). So I typically buy a one-Android-behind device, with great hardware for half price essentially.
  - lake99 10y ago
    I blame customers too, but for a different reason. I only reward manufacturers for devices that are well-represented on Cyanogenmod. Granted, someone like my mom has no hope of installing Cyanogenmod on her own, given that she knows nothing of Google or Android. But as long as people have friends or family to help them out with technical matters, they only have themselves to blame for devices whose software quickly go stale.
    - drivingmenuts 10y ago
      > But as long as people have friends or family to help them out with technical matters, they only have themselves to blame for devices whose software quickly go stale. That part makes no sense to me. People who don't have the technical skill to deal with upgrading are typically the people least interested in upgrading.

mfjordvald 10y ago

So I was a founding employee at OnePlus, I've since left but I've seen both how Cyanogen worked and the efforts that went into building the Android team at OnePlus after the relationship with Cyanogen soured. And really, it seems the author is a bit naive about how many Android OEMs actually work. Though I don't know about any revenue sharing, assuming it's there and that Google would take it away, would it incentivise faster updates? Definitely. Would it actually produce faster updates? Very much doubt it. At least for OnePlus it wasn't a lack of willingness, prioritisation, or ability. Both the Cyanogen team and the Paranoid Android team, which got hired later on, are highly skilled and have a lot of experience. Most of the time was spent integrating drivers from external providers such as Qualcomm and JDI. A lot of the time we were simply waiting for working drivers for the hardware we were using and other times we were waiting on bug fixes. For the biggest OEMs such as Samsung this might actually help them prioritise as they have a more customised OS and as such might spend more time there. Though I'd wager a guess that the reason they cannot move faster is also due to waiting on 3rd party companies not affected by this ad-sharing penalty and that they have a hard time hiring qualified people who know the android system well enough to move things faster.

fauigerzigerk 10y ago
Why does the Nexus line not have these driver issues?
- benologist 10y ago
  nVidia are also keeping up with their Shield hardware.
  - mfjordvald 10y ago
    nVidia are using their own hardware so therefore they write their own drivers. Most OEMs outsource to Qualcomm or MediaTek.
- mfjordvald 10y ago
  Cannot give a completely satisfying answer because I don't know. But running basically stock android and being Google helps a lot. One thing I forgot to mention but which usually adds a couple of weeks extra is the certification process you have to go through. Assuming Google can speed that up a bit for itself.

gtirloni 10y ago

The point is deep within the article and it's this: We've heard reports that Google shares ad revenue with its partners—if a customer buys a Verizon Samsung phone, performs a Google search, and clicks on an ad, Verizon and Samsung get a portion of that ad revenue. So, penalize partners by reducing or eliminating that revenue sharing if they don't push out updates. If an OEM exceeds the curve and stays up to date, increase the amount of revenue sharing.

bitL 10y ago

I wish OS upgrades were actually upgrades and not often downgrades. For example, KitKat handled SD card as a 1st class storage, allowing to reinstall apps on an SD card; Lollipop deletes an app from SD card, installs it on the main storage and forces you to manually move it to SD card after each update. I now have >100 pending updates as I am no longer willing to waste time on moving all apps to my 200GB SD card. Now Marshmallow has some silly approach obsoleting internal eMMC with an SD card, of course non-negotiably encrypted with the intent that nobody can extract music, video etc. that might be copyrighted. Next, Windows Phone 8.1 first removed the option to store HERE Maps on an SD card and 10 removed the app completely, which was about the only appeal to buy a WP device for me before HERE Maps were available on iOS & Android (and the new default map app is an annoying adware). I am one of those aesthetically unhappy people with flat interfaces - all major OSes shove ugly flatness down my throat. This is a major deal for somebody that has 100% perfect color vision and does professional photography - it's simply unbearable to look at phones these days. The only recluse on Android for me was to install Chinese ULauncher, making Android look like OS X Mavericks, but that phones home way too many things. Not even getting started on Windows 10 nagware which forced me to disable updates completely. Frankly, I hope Jolla survives (are they backed by HMD now?) and allows me to customize every aspect of my phone instead of accepting more and more restrictions "for my own good". Linux Mint + Sailfish could be a dream combo.

digi_owl 10y ago
Kitkat (aka 4.4), first class storage?! Far from it. Since maybe 3.1 Google had clamped down on honest to deity SD access, by changing up the permissions so that the card could only be read by non-system apps. Samsung and other OEMs routinely changed things back to the old behavior until 4.4 shipped, and Google seems to have arm twisted them into no longer doing so.

PostThisTooFast 10y ago

It is Google that should be shamed for building an OS without a proper abstraction layer or driver model to allow people to update the OS without breaking everything else. Creaky old Windows manages to run on millions of disparate configurations, but every update doesn't break the drivers. Google's incompetence has left the phone market in a pathetic state, as Apple hurtles backward under the inept hack Jony Ive, and the only viable alternative is a fragmented mess.