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I feel conflicted about "Persian" rugs. So much child labor goes into making them that by buying one you are helping support a dispicable trade in human misery.

I feel conflicted about "Persian" rugs. So much child labor goes into making them that by buying one you are helping support a dispicable trade in human misery. At the same time they can be highly beautiful and practical. I have decided to take the same approach as with Ivory - old ivory is fine, but new Ivory is not. I have a few antique rugs that I really love, but I would not buy a new one.

sandworm101 10y ago
But unlike ivory, that cannot be made without dead elephants, it possible to create a Persian carpet without child labour. Children used to mine coal, but we still have coal. So we can still have Persian carpets. I used to live in the middle east and when I left I brought a medium-sized pile of them. They are great and very utilitarian. The one in my living room is nearly a hundred years old and has seen many generations of dogs, cats and in all probability goats. They can be cleaned an repaired in a way rare for modern products.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- danieltillett 10y ago
  Sure, but it is really hard to ensure this as a consumer. Most rugs don't come with a label "made with slave labor". By only buying old you get to avoid supporting continued abuses while still having an item of beauty and practicality.
  - the_rosentotter 10y ago
    A lot of the stuff you use every day is made with what is practically slave labor, often child labor too. Not that it makes it any better, but there is no reason to single out rugs.
wfunction 10y ago
Do you have any links that support the idea that child labor is a major part of the labor and that said children are actually living in misery?
- ggggtez 10y ago
  Are you suggesting it's possible to have child labor where the children don't live in misery? I think that's historically unprecedented.
  - colechristensen 10y ago
    I grew up on a farm in Iowa, spent much of my youth working, and wouldn't describe it as misery.
  - wtbob 10y ago
    Growing up I knew a lot of families whose children worked in their restaurants. While — kids being kids — I'm sure that they would have told you that they were miserable, I don't think that they actually were. Honestly, is a kid who must work any more miserable than an adult who must work? The entire idea of childhood is a very recent invention, after all.
    - sandworm101 10y ago
      >> is a kid who must work any more miserable than an adult who must work? Yes, if that working deprives them of an education. Or if they work in conditions that an adult would not tolerate. Or if their pay is paid to someone else (ie parents renting out children). Or if their status as "children" or "wards" of their employers results in them having fewer rights than adults in the same employ.
      - wodenokoto 10y ago
        "yes, if" doesn't really make any sense to this type of question. Is it really better to be a man than a woman? Yes, if you're rich. Are dogs really worse than cats? Yes, if they have rabies. I think decent working conditions was more than implied by parent.
IOT_Apprentice 10y ago
Interesting there were no photos of children in the piece but rather men and mention of old women.
tn13 10y ago
"Misery" is a relative term. A 12 year old working in fields might seem harsh to an American but for an Indian or Bangladeshi kid that is an opportunity because the alternative is dying on the street devoid of any help. Many top American brands use the services of slum sweatshops in USA directly and indirectly and employ children in harsh conditions but this work is better than working as child prostitutes of beggars. Globalization helped these slum children get better, earn more and live a better life than in past even though as per American standards one might see it as a miserable life. Trading more and more with poor countries is the best way Americans can help the poor countries. People complain about China's sweatshops and work conditions but in reality Chinese are far better off than 30 years and and the labor value and conditions have improved steadily over last 3 decades.
- Aelinsaar 10y ago
  That has nothing to do with the relativity of misery, it's just a testament to how miserable their other choices are.
  - iopq 10y ago
    Yes, but you would rather have them starve. I did some odd jobs as a teenager after school for cash, why is that a bad thing? Is work something that only adults can do?
    - pyre 10y ago
      > I did some odd jobs as a teenager after school for cash, why is that a bad thing? I think that this indicates a disconnect between your reality and theirs. Whether or not the work improves their condition, comparing what they live through with "doing odd jobs as a teenager for extra cash" sounds a bit like you're not living in reality.
      - iopq 10y ago
        Of course my reality is different. I just don't see why a teenager working is somehow abhorrent while an adult working is fine.
paulddraper 10y ago
It's tragic and should be fixed. But before you try to fix it with boycotts, remember that people in sweatshops are there because that is literally their best opportunity.
- danieltillett 10y ago
  I am not suggesting a boycott, just trying to come to a personal moral position I feel comfortable with.
  - Pyxl101 10y ago
    Immanuel Kant came up with an idea that's known as the categorical imperative. It is best known under the formulation: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." Have you heard of the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics? I found it interesting to read about: https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...
    - danieltillett 10y ago
      I am not sure I agree with Kant. There are many things I personally would do or not do, but which I don't feel should be universal. Good arguments can be made for buying new rugs, but I don't want to have something in my home which I feel might be helping perpetuate child slavery. This is just my personal moral judgement and not one I want to impose on anyone else.
      - icebraining 10y ago
        But does it perpetuate it, or help them escape it faster? My grandmothers both worked as children in Europe. Nowadays I'm a software developer who sits on his ass and complains if I'm working for than 8h/day. The same pattern seems to have been the norm in most (all?) developed countries.
venomsnake 10y ago
I think there is distinction between child labor and child exploitation for labor. In my summers as a kid I have done some agricultural work helping my parents and their friends. I was hard but rewarding (also hitting someone with a rotten potato - at age 8 - feels like watching Hamilton). And seeing the insane workload that some modern parents put on their kids for academic advancement - the line can get blurry. There is world of difference between a small family operation in which the kids help (which is what was presented in the article) and work you till your fingers bleed workshop. Kids have always provided labor - and misery there is optional. What we should look for is if the labor hurts the child or helps him and his family.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Citation?
codingdave 10y ago
I'm all for avoiding purchases of products that involve child labor. It is worth researching how pervasive that is, because many products manufactured overseas suffer from this problem. It is the main reason I buy into "Made in the USA." Not because I am overly patriotic (I'm not.), but because it improves the odds that child labor was not involved in its production.

sandworm101 10y ago

But unlike ivory, that cannot be made without dead elephants, it possible to create a Persian carpet without child labour. Children used to mine coal, but we still have coal. So we can still have Persian carpets. I used to live in the middle east and when I left I brought a medium-sized pile of them. They are great and very utilitarian. The one in my living room is nearly a hundred years old and has seen many generations of dogs, cats and in all probability goats. They can be cleaned an repaired in a way rare for modern products.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
danieltillett 10y ago
Sure, but it is really hard to ensure this as a consumer. Most rugs don't come with a label "made with slave labor". By only buying old you get to avoid supporting continued abuses while still having an item of beauty and practicality.
- the_rosentotter 10y ago
  A lot of the stuff you use every day is made with what is practically slave labor, often child labor too. Not that it makes it any better, but there is no reason to single out rugs.

wfunction 10y ago

Do you have any links that support the idea that child labor is a major part of the labor and that said children are actually living in misery?

ggggtez 10y ago
Are you suggesting it's possible to have child labor where the children don't live in misery? I think that's historically unprecedented.
- colechristensen 10y ago
  I grew up on a farm in Iowa, spent much of my youth working, and wouldn't describe it as misery.
- wtbob 10y ago
  Growing up I knew a lot of families whose children worked in their restaurants. While — kids being kids — I'm sure that they would have told you that they were miserable, I don't think that they actually were. Honestly, is a kid who must work any more miserable than an adult who must work? The entire idea of childhood is a very recent invention, after all.
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    >> is a kid who must work any more miserable than an adult who must work? Yes, if that working deprives them of an education. Or if they work in conditions that an adult would not tolerate. Or if their pay is paid to someone else (ie parents renting out children). Or if their status as "children" or "wards" of their employers results in them having fewer rights than adults in the same employ.
    - wodenokoto 10y ago
      "yes, if" doesn't really make any sense to this type of question. Is it really better to be a man than a woman? Yes, if you're rich. Are dogs really worse than cats? Yes, if they have rabies. I think decent working conditions was more than implied by parent.

IOT_Apprentice 10y ago

Interesting there were no photos of children in the piece but rather men and mention of old women.

tn13 10y ago

"Misery" is a relative term. A 12 year old working in fields might seem harsh to an American but for an Indian or Bangladeshi kid that is an opportunity because the alternative is dying on the street devoid of any help. Many top American brands use the services of slum sweatshops in USA directly and indirectly and employ children in harsh conditions but this work is better than working as child prostitutes of beggars. Globalization helped these slum children get better, earn more and live a better life than in past even though as per American standards one might see it as a miserable life. Trading more and more with poor countries is the best way Americans can help the poor countries. People complain about China's sweatshops and work conditions but in reality Chinese are far better off than 30 years and and the labor value and conditions have improved steadily over last 3 decades.

Aelinsaar 10y ago
That has nothing to do with the relativity of misery, it's just a testament to how miserable their other choices are.
- iopq 10y ago
  Yes, but you would rather have them starve. I did some odd jobs as a teenager after school for cash, why is that a bad thing? Is work something that only adults can do?
  - pyre 10y ago
    > I did some odd jobs as a teenager after school for cash, why is that a bad thing? I think that this indicates a disconnect between your reality and theirs. Whether or not the work improves their condition, comparing what they live through with "doing odd jobs as a teenager for extra cash" sounds a bit like you're not living in reality.
    - iopq 10y ago
      Of course my reality is different. I just don't see why a teenager working is somehow abhorrent while an adult working is fine.

paulddraper 10y ago

It's tragic and should be fixed. But before you try to fix it with boycotts, remember that people in sweatshops are there because that is literally their best opportunity.

danieltillett 10y ago
I am not suggesting a boycott, just trying to come to a personal moral position I feel comfortable with.
- Pyxl101 10y ago
  Immanuel Kant came up with an idea that's known as the categorical imperative. It is best known under the formulation: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." Have you heard of the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics? I found it interesting to read about: https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...
  - danieltillett 10y ago
    I am not sure I agree with Kant. There are many things I personally would do or not do, but which I don't feel should be universal. Good arguments can be made for buying new rugs, but I don't want to have something in my home which I feel might be helping perpetuate child slavery. This is just my personal moral judgement and not one I want to impose on anyone else.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      But does it perpetuate it, or help them escape it faster? My grandmothers both worked as children in Europe. Nowadays I'm a software developer who sits on his ass and complains if I'm working for than 8h/day. The same pattern seems to have been the norm in most (all?) developed countries.

venomsnake 10y ago

I think there is distinction between child labor and child exploitation for labor. In my summers as a kid I have done some agricultural work helping my parents and their friends. I was hard but rewarding (also hitting someone with a rotten potato - at age 8 - feels like watching Hamilton). And seeing the insane workload that some modern parents put on their kids for academic advancement - the line can get blurry. There is world of difference between a small family operation in which the kids help (which is what was presented in the article) and work you till your fingers bleed workshop. Kids have always provided labor - and misery there is optional. What we should look for is if the labor hurts the child or helps him and his family.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Citation?

codingdave 10y ago

I'm all for avoiding purchases of products that involve child labor. It is worth researching how pervasive that is, because many products manufactured overseas suffer from this problem. It is the main reason I buy into "Made in the USA." Not because I am overly patriotic (I'm not.), but because it improves the odds that child labor was not involved in its production.