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I am thinking of a constructive way to solve problems such as these. What do you think of making public the host's acceptance and rejection rate by race and gen

by soyiuz 10y ago

I am thinking of a constructive way to solve problems such as these. What do you think of making public the host's acceptance and rejection rate by race and gender?

puppers 10y ago
Consider if the host is black and the only caucasian people that inquire about the BnB are obviously hillbillies. Let's say he doesn't have a problem with caucasian people in general, but really doesn't like hillbillies. Let's say he promptly rejects them all. His rejection rate will make him look like he dislikes caucasians.
- PKop 10y ago
  How is what you described a defensible action? What are hillbillies?
- tbabb 10y ago
  And why, exactly, should the homeowner's right to make superficial snap judgments about people be protected? Why does AirBnB have some obligation to protect his image, which he brings upon himself with his own choices? Why is his image more important than somebody else's ability to find basic services like lodging without being judged or excluded based on outward appearance?
  - puppers 10y ago
    My comment was about how the solution soyiuz suggested could go wrong. Your questions are better directed towards him.
    - moosemilkie 10y ago
      What is "going wrong" in your scenario, though?
      - puppers 10y ago
        The host is wrongly perceived as someone who dislikes Caucasians.
        tbabb 10y ago
        And this is worse than not being able to find lodging because of shallow, narrow-minded snap judgments people make about your profile picture?
        puppers 10y ago
        For the host? Definitely! For AirBnB? Definitely, since AirBnb serves not only guests, but hosts as well. If I can't choose who to allow into my home, I am not using AirBnB as a host. I am confident that almost everyone shares this sentiment. Imagine if AirBnB required you to let anyone stay at your home. AirBnB wouldn't last another day. I agree that you shouldn't make judgements based upon only the profile picture. On the other hand, if they post things I find unattractive (like making fun of people of another race), I'm definitely not going to let them in my home. (OP seems to be a victim of the former and I sympathize with him)
  - TotallyHuman 10y ago
    So you are saying people don't have a right to choose for themselves who they want to rent their home to? It isn't illegal being a bigot or religiously deluded yet.
    - tbabb 10y ago
      I am saying that AirBnB has no duty to hide which hosts are racist from its customers, and, in fact, highlighting the information is a fair way to combat the problem-- and let customers punish hosts with their business-- without being authoritarian.
- mst 10y ago
  Being perceived as the wrong sort of prejudiced douchenozzle doesn't seem that important a failure mode to me.
tootie 10y ago
Stay at hotels. It's illegal for them to discriminate.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  In many cases, its illegal for people offering rentals through AirBnB to discriminate under the same laws that prohibit this for hotels.
- alistairSH 10y ago
  While that's certainly true, it's a bit of a cop-out to suggest that as the optimal solution. Hotels have their place, but for extended vacations, having an entire home at your disposal can really change the quality of the vacation. More space to spread out and relax, a kitchen so you can cook some meals, etc.
mindslight 10y ago
Don't plaster your face all over your profiles? The early net developed around a culture of eschewing pictures and even choosing one's own name, putting the focus on the content of what was said. When one puts a picture front and center and you bring in a whole lot of monkey-sphere bullshit. Of course AirBNB gets blame for pushing users to do that, making it so that not having a picture is weird but using a picture of someone else is fraud. It would obviously be politically unpalatable, but in a way it might be better if say AirBNB implemented support for discrimination on their platform. It's obviously something that exists, so reifying it into the formal system should make it easier to optimize away.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  Not going to work; trust me, I've tried. I tried for years to avoid getting my pictures online, they got there anyway and are a Google search away. Now I've stopped caring. If you want to participate in social media (which you have to, some people won't communicate any other way) you've got to accept that not everyone views your privacy the way you do. And even of it did work, it wouldn't solve the issue since discrimination based on name can happen just as easily for people with obviously-black or obviously-Islamic names.
basseq 10y ago
Within bounds of statistical variance, this is an interesting idea. I'm thinking of small sample sizes and the negatives of publicly posting an algorithmicly-derived statement of, effectively, racism. And do we normalize against those factors being transparent to renters? (If I reject an applicant with no photo who happens to be black, does that "count"?) But if you get it right, is there any legitimate explanation for why statistical differences would exist? Or do you baseline against the entire AirBNB population (which may be biased in of itself)?

by soyiuz 10y ago

I am thinking of a constructive way to solve problems such as these. What do you think of making public the host's acceptance and rejection rate by race and gender?

puppers 10y ago

Consider if the host is black and the only caucasian people that inquire about the BnB are obviously hillbillies. Let's say he doesn't have a problem with caucasian people in general, but really doesn't like hillbillies. Let's say he promptly rejects them all. His rejection rate will make him look like he dislikes caucasians.

PKop 10y ago
How is what you described a defensible action? What are hillbillies?
tbabb 10y ago
And why, exactly, should the homeowner's right to make superficial snap judgments about people be protected? Why does AirBnB have some obligation to protect his image, which he brings upon himself with his own choices? Why is his image more important than somebody else's ability to find basic services like lodging without being judged or excluded based on outward appearance?
- puppers 10y ago
  My comment was about how the solution soyiuz suggested could go wrong. Your questions are better directed towards him.
  - moosemilkie 10y ago
    What is "going wrong" in your scenario, though?
    - puppers 10y ago
      The host is wrongly perceived as someone who dislikes Caucasians.
      - tbabb 10y ago
        And this is worse than not being able to find lodging because of shallow, narrow-minded snap judgments people make about your profile picture?
        puppers 10y ago
        For the host? Definitely! For AirBnB? Definitely, since AirBnb serves not only guests, but hosts as well. If I can't choose who to allow into my home, I am not using AirBnB as a host. I am confident that almost everyone shares this sentiment. Imagine if AirBnB required you to let anyone stay at your home. AirBnB wouldn't last another day. I agree that you shouldn't make judgements based upon only the profile picture. On the other hand, if they post things I find unattractive (like making fun of people of another race), I'm definitely not going to let them in my home. (OP seems to be a victim of the former and I sympathize with him)
- TotallyHuman 10y ago
  So you are saying people don't have a right to choose for themselves who they want to rent their home to? It isn't illegal being a bigot or religiously deluded yet.
  - tbabb 10y ago
    I am saying that AirBnB has no duty to hide which hosts are racist from its customers, and, in fact, highlighting the information is a fair way to combat the problem-- and let customers punish hosts with their business-- without being authoritarian.
mst 10y ago
Being perceived as the wrong sort of prejudiced douchenozzle doesn't seem that important a failure mode to me.

tootie 10y ago

Stay at hotels. It's illegal for them to discriminate.

dragonwriter 10y ago
In many cases, its illegal for people offering rentals through AirBnB to discriminate under the same laws that prohibit this for hotels.
alistairSH 10y ago
While that's certainly true, it's a bit of a cop-out to suggest that as the optimal solution. Hotels have their place, but for extended vacations, having an entire home at your disposal can really change the quality of the vacation. More space to spread out and relax, a kitchen so you can cook some meals, etc.

mindslight 10y ago

Don't plaster your face all over your profiles? The early net developed around a culture of eschewing pictures and even choosing one's own name, putting the focus on the content of what was said. When one puts a picture front and center and you bring in a whole lot of monkey-sphere bullshit. Of course AirBNB gets blame for pushing users to do that, making it so that not having a picture is weird but using a picture of someone else is fraud. It would obviously be politically unpalatable, but in a way it might be better if say AirBNB implemented support for discrimination on their platform. It's obviously something that exists, so reifying it into the formal system should make it easier to optimize away.

Manishearth 10y ago
Not going to work; trust me, I've tried. I tried for years to avoid getting my pictures online, they got there anyway and are a Google search away. Now I've stopped caring. If you want to participate in social media (which you have to, some people won't communicate any other way) you've got to accept that not everyone views your privacy the way you do. And even of it did work, it wouldn't solve the issue since discrimination based on name can happen just as easily for people with obviously-black or obviously-Islamic names.

basseq 10y ago

Within bounds of statistical variance, this is an interesting idea. I'm thinking of small sample sizes and the negatives of publicly posting an algorithmicly-derived statement of, effectively, racism. And do we normalize against those factors being transparent to renters? (If I reject an applicant with no photo who happens to be black, does that "count"?) But if you get it right, is there any legitimate explanation for why statistical differences would exist? Or do you baseline against the entire AirBNB population (which may be biased in of itself)?