5 ms·

Those actions are the same at every level of company. I think it's harder at big companies because you don't have the opportunity to offer (or withhold) support

by basseq 10y ago

Those actions are the same at every level of company. I think it's harder at big companies because you don't have the opportunity to offer (or withhold) support or create perceptions about people you literally might never come in contact with. If you're doing that to someone on your team, (good) managers will notice the disconnect. Look, is it possible? Of course: in every environment. The person who's going to be unethical and sabotage others is going to do so regardless of whether stack-ranking is involved.

simula67 10y ago
> The person who's going to be unethical and sabotage others is going to do so regardless of whether stack-ranking is involved. The trick is not to think about people as purely ethical or unethical. Imagine, if you would be willing to tell a small child, right before an arithmetic exam, 1 + 1 = 3 for $10 billion. Will you do it ? The harm is probably very low ( someone is probably going to correct the child anyway ) but you get to make $10 billion. Clearly the good it does to you far outweighs the bad it does to the child. You may not be evil in this case, and different people have different thresholds for it. There is no one so ethical that they would never lie to a child at any price. This premium increases with higher and higher crimes. Also the premium decreses the more desperate you are. People with higher premiums for same level of desperation are better than others. Stack ranking incentivizes people to stab each other in the back. Some people will take the incentive. It does not necessarily mean they are unethical.
- judahmeek 10y ago
  Rather, it means that we are all unethical as long as the risk/benefit ratio feels right.
bpchaps 10y ago
It's definitely possible and it's happened to me more than I'd like to admit. I feel a lot of it stems from folks not stepping in and admitting theirs or others' faults. I did a second tour a baml and did some of their release management. We hired a new guy who was technical and smart, but never listened to training since he was busy texting all the time. So, when he typo'd and all builds started failing, the fault was put on my shoulders and didn't want to admit fault. My manager wouldn't listen to what actually happened. I think I was out of there maybe two months later after they chose not to renew my contract (which thankfully force broke some golden cuffs). The guy who messed up is still there, I think. tl;dr baml sucks. Another time at a medium sized company, there was a new ~really cool~ NOC being built that everyone wanted to check out. My boss took everyone up, but a locked door was in the way and I was given permission to open it with a CC. A week later, two other guys on the team did the same thing, got caught by security, and almost got fired by the CTO directly. My boss, at no point, stepped up and admitted he did the same. When talks of firing started, I made it very, very clear to him that if those two got fired, I'd make sure that both of us would be fired, too. Nobody was fired, so it might have actually worked, but it's incredibly shameful that of five others involve, nobody stepped in to add correction. That same place also created artificial competition by only having one fulltime opening for the 6 contractors. Lots and lots of subtle backstabbing as a result. When they gave me the position over the other guys who'd been there for a lot longer, things became very oddly hostile. I have more stories like this, and yes, it happens at big, large and medium companies, but it's so much easier to do it at bigger companies.

by basseq 10y ago

simula67 10y ago

> The person who's going to be unethical and sabotage others is going to do so regardless of whether stack-ranking is involved. The trick is not to think about people as purely ethical or unethical. Imagine, if you would be willing to tell a small child, right before an arithmetic exam, 1 + 1 = 3 for $10 billion. Will you do it ? The harm is probably very low ( someone is probably going to correct the child anyway ) but you get to make $10 billion. Clearly the good it does to you far outweighs the bad it does to the child. You may not be evil in this case, and different people have different thresholds for it. There is no one so ethical that they would never lie to a child at any price. This premium increases with higher and higher crimes. Also the premium decreses the more desperate you are. People with higher premiums for same level of desperation are better than others. Stack ranking incentivizes people to stab each other in the back. Some people will take the incentive. It does not necessarily mean they are unethical.

judahmeek 10y ago
Rather, it means that we are all unethical as long as the risk/benefit ratio feels right.

bpchaps 10y ago

It's definitely possible and it's happened to me more than I'd like to admit. I feel a lot of it stems from folks not stepping in and admitting theirs or others' faults. I did a second tour a baml and did some of their release management. We hired a new guy who was technical and smart, but never listened to training since he was busy texting all the time. So, when he typo'd and all builds started failing, the fault was put on my shoulders and didn't want to admit fault. My manager wouldn't listen to what actually happened. I think I was out of there maybe two months later after they chose not to renew my contract (which thankfully force broke some golden cuffs). The guy who messed up is still there, I think. tl;dr baml sucks. Another time at a medium sized company, there was a new ~really cool~ NOC being built that everyone wanted to check out. My boss took everyone up, but a locked door was in the way and I was given permission to open it with a CC. A week later, two other guys on the team did the same thing, got caught by security, and almost got fired by the CTO directly. My boss, at no point, stepped up and admitted he did the same. When talks of firing started, I made it very, very clear to him that if those two got fired, I'd make sure that both of us would be fired, too. Nobody was fired, so it might have actually worked, but it's incredibly shameful that of five others involve, nobody stepped in to add correction. That same place also created artificial competition by only having one fulltime opening for the 6 contractors. Lots and lots of subtle backstabbing as a result. When they gave me the position over the other guys who'd been there for a lot longer, things became very oddly hostile. I have more stories like this, and yes, it happens at big, large and medium companies, but it's so much easier to do it at bigger companies.