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Pessimist! :) I disagree. I think much of human suffering due to competition stems from lack of security, or the lack of reassurance that basic needs will be m

by Styx- 10y ago

Pessimist! :) I disagree. I think much of human suffering due to competition stems from lack of security, or the lack of reassurance that basic needs will be met. Imagine a technological utopia. All of your needs as a human being are met. All of the needs of your friends and family are met. Can you not imagine how much easier it would be to advance toward a "social utopia"? Before the Renaissance, the cut-throat psychotic human beings tended to do the best in terms of gathering resources, security, etc. Since the Renaissance, this has become less and less true and merit has started to take precedence. Eventually, once the conditions for a technological utopia are met and for the majority of the population, it will be a like a light has suddenly been turned on. Those that have all of their basic needs met, tend to be nicer to others on the whole. Besides, even if I'm wrong, it's not hard to imagine some sort of machine or system that short-circuits "our biologically driven urge to dominate the gene pool" for the good of humanity.

wdmeldon 10y ago
> All of your needs as a human being are met. All of the needs of your friends and family are met. Can you not imagine how much easier it would be to advance toward a "social utopia"? This is the case for basically everyone I know, and I'd imagine this being the case for a lot of the people here. But we're not advancing to a social utopia.
- XorNot 10y ago
  There's a loooooong way you can fall in our society. Until that floor is a lot closer to what we call "middle class" you're not going to realize many social benefits.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  Is it? Most of us are one major medical disaster away from being bankrupt. And losing your job generally would throw all that out the window.
tim333 10y ago
Slightly off topic but I can't help but be reminded of the quote from The Third Man: "in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." I'm mildly optimistic that we can at least encourage the better bits of society found in the real world today.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  >"in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Surely Italy at the time had a far larger population base than Switzerland. Also, Switzerland did produce something: a much better society, which served as an example to others. Unfortunately, just as we see today with the difference between developed and undeveloped nations, people are generally too stupid, in groups, to actually learn from others' examples.
- cylinder 10y ago
  And if you were to be dropped with no possessions save for a passport of the nation you are dropped in, where do you go today: Italy or Switzerland?
FilterSweep 10y ago
> I think much of human suffering due to competition stems from lack of security, or the lack of reassurance that basic needs will be met. Good comment - there are two places I disagree with you: 1) See the hedonic treadmill theory[0]. You could point to someone, relatively speaking, who is on top of the world. But they are still unhappy. Why is this? It's sometimes theorized that we are at a "set point" in happiness, and while we can run faster on the treadmill, or slow down on the treadmill from time to time, we are stuck at this set level of happiness. 2) Surely the vast majority of the developed western world is not at a lack for "basic needs", but why is there so much anger and despair? Because I believe you might be missing more of the "basic needs" than just Food and Water. See Maslow's hierarchy of needs[1]. While it is also theory which has arguments against it, it utilizes a more comprehensive definition of "needs." Surely there are many people in the western world who lack psychological stability or lack companionship. > All of the needs of your friends and family are met. You will need to define "needs" because IMHO, that is not true. I have relatives who are veterans of war, friends who have had psychotic breaks, friends who have everything they need but something just doesn't "click" with them. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
- hodwik 10y ago
  >"we are stuck at this set level of happiness." Relevent HAPPYish scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWcB_xuBSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWcB_xuBSM
- Styx- 10y ago
  You're right, I should've defined "needs". I actually had Maslow's Hierarchy in mind when I made my comment. Also, "all of your needs as a human being are met" was meant in the context of a technological utopia, not now. As for the hedonic treadmill, I'm sure this is something that philosophers have considered for ages, but I can only give my personal thoughts on it which are this: I believe that "happiness" is attainable. Perhaps not pure bliss like popular culture likes to portray it as, but when I think of "happiness" I usually think of "contentedness." In this frame, I think it becomes more obviously attainable. And if it is attainable in the far-from-perfect world we live in now, then surely it will be attainable in some-distant-future-full-of-convenience. I also think that this concept of hedonism is self-perpetuating. If you believe in nihilism, it becomes your reality. If you reject nihilism, it doesn't.
Styx- 10y ago
EDIT: "All of your needs as a human being are met (according to Maslow's hierarchy.)"

by Styx- 10y ago

wdmeldon 10y ago

> All of your needs as a human being are met. All of the needs of your friends and family are met. Can you not imagine how much easier it would be to advance toward a "social utopia"? This is the case for basically everyone I know, and I'd imagine this being the case for a lot of the people here. But we're not advancing to a social utopia.

XorNot 10y ago
There's a loooooong way you can fall in our society. Until that floor is a lot closer to what we call "middle class" you're not going to realize many social benefits.
st3v3r 10y ago
Is it? Most of us are one major medical disaster away from being bankrupt. And losing your job generally would throw all that out the window.

tim333 10y ago

Slightly off topic but I can't help but be reminded of the quote from The Third Man: "in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." I'm mildly optimistic that we can at least encourage the better bits of society found in the real world today.

Grishnakh 10y ago
>"in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Surely Italy at the time had a far larger population base than Switzerland. Also, Switzerland did produce something: a much better society, which served as an example to others. Unfortunately, just as we see today with the difference between developed and undeveloped nations, people are generally too stupid, in groups, to actually learn from others' examples.
cylinder 10y ago
And if you were to be dropped with no possessions save for a passport of the nation you are dropped in, where do you go today: Italy or Switzerland?

FilterSweep 10y ago

> I think much of human suffering due to competition stems from lack of security, or the lack of reassurance that basic needs will be met. Good comment - there are two places I disagree with you: 1) See the hedonic treadmill theory[0]. You could point to someone, relatively speaking, who is on top of the world. But they are still unhappy. Why is this? It's sometimes theorized that we are at a "set point" in happiness, and while we can run faster on the treadmill, or slow down on the treadmill from time to time, we are stuck at this set level of happiness. 2) Surely the vast majority of the developed western world is not at a lack for "basic needs", but why is there so much anger and despair? Because I believe you might be missing more of the "basic needs" than just Food and Water. See Maslow's hierarchy of needs[1]. While it is also theory which has arguments against it, it utilizes a more comprehensive definition of "needs." Surely there are many people in the western world who lack psychological stability or lack companionship. > All of the needs of your friends and family are met. You will need to define "needs" because IMHO, that is not true. I have relatives who are veterans of war, friends who have had psychotic breaks, friends who have everything they need but something just doesn't "click" with them. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

hodwik 10y ago
>"we are stuck at this set level of happiness." Relevent HAPPYish scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWcB_xuBSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AWcB_xuBSM
Styx- 10y ago
You're right, I should've defined "needs". I actually had Maslow's Hierarchy in mind when I made my comment. Also, "all of your needs as a human being are met" was meant in the context of a technological utopia, not now. As for the hedonic treadmill, I'm sure this is something that philosophers have considered for ages, but I can only give my personal thoughts on it which are this: I believe that "happiness" is attainable. Perhaps not pure bliss like popular culture likes to portray it as, but when I think of "happiness" I usually think of "contentedness." In this frame, I think it becomes more obviously attainable. And if it is attainable in the far-from-perfect world we live in now, then surely it will be attainable in some-distant-future-full-of-convenience. I also think that this concept of hedonism is self-perpetuating. If you believe in nihilism, it becomes your reality. If you reject nihilism, it doesn't.

Styx- 10y ago

EDIT: "All of your needs as a human being are met (according to Maslow's hierarchy.)"