4 ms·

The problem is when people expect work to be pleasurable. It's good when it is is, and it's something to strive for, but the reality of work is that some of it

The problem is when people expect work to be pleasurable. It's good when it is is, and it's something to strive for, but the reality of work is that some of it is unpleasant. Software development in particular is hard. The problem you work on doesn't care about your feelings. We gloss over this fact when we turn our workplaces into creches. Pride in doing a job well is more sustainable than a demand for happiness and novelty.

gadders 10y ago
If work was that much fun, they wouldn't have to pay us to make us do it.
- k__ 10y ago
  Well, there are many OSS/FS projects out there, where people do exactly that. Do that work without getting paid. It's not the software work per se that isn't fun most of the time. Often the problem is that people who have no idea about software development want to shape "how" we work. "I pay you mad bucks for this, so you have to sit here and be watched multiple times a day so you I know you're really working!"
  - gadders 10y ago
    Is that the exact same work as what they do in their day job? I'm not saying software isn't fun, I'm saying that the stuff you choose to do in your free time is less fun than the software you do 9-5. Admittedly some lucky people get paid to work on the open-source thing they created, but they're in a tiny minority.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Maybe I'm a weird case, but most of the time the part in which the work is paid for is enough for me to immediately lose interest. That is, I can do equivalent work 10x faster as long as I'm doing it out of my own motivation, and not because someone expects me to do it. (Yeah, I had problems with assignments in school too. I'm just wired this way.)
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  I don't buy this premise. You get paid to work because your work creates value for someone. Whether you have fun doing the work is quite irrelevant. You could argue people would be willing to work for less if it was fun and you would have a point. But the idea that the other party is paying you to work because it is unfun is bonkers.
  - ghaff 10y ago
    They're willing/able to pay you because your work is creating value. They usually have to pay you for a variety of reasons: - It's not so much fun that you're willing to do it for free - You can't afford to do it for free even if you would be willing to do so in principle - Someone else is willing to pay you to do more or less the same thing
- onion2k 10y ago
  Yes, they would. We demand money for our work, even when we find it tremendously fun, because we need to pay for food and shelter. If you were to take that need away (by either providing food and shelter for free or by providing a universal basic income) then we'll start working on fun things for free.
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    A UBI won't change things that much. The key word in UBI is "Basic". If I could get $200k for doing nothing, then yeah, I'd just get myself a nice place and vacation and work on some interesting FOSS projects on my own, and if I get pissed off at the other collaborators for some reason I'd quit and go find a different hobby project. But that's not what UBI does, and UBI wouldn't work (at least not in the near term) if it were like that. UBI is a basic income: it gives you just enough so you're not starving or living on the street. I don't know about you, but I don't really want to eat cheap, crappy food and live in the ghetto. So even with a UBI, I'm going to want to have an unhappy job so I can afford a nice place and a nicer lifestyle. I can see the UBI making it so that fewer people take really crappy jobs though: poorly-paid jobs that are dangerous or just plain miserable. Why work for some asshole boss, perhaps working in a hot kitchen at some greasy-spoon restaurant, if you can just sit at home with your UBI and not deal with that stress and hot grease splattering on you? Sure, working the crappy job will give you more money than just having the UBI, since the job doesn't take away your UBI, but if the job is that miserable, it'll either go unfilled or the boss will have to pay more to get people to want to bother with it. But software development is rarely that bad, and is much more highly paid due to its difficult nature. They're not going to have much trouble, under a UBI system, finding people willing to do boring ERP system development for 6 figures.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  "They pay us" because we don't all have trust funds. Most jobs, even what people consider good-paying ones, barely cover the cost of showing up.
lostcolony 10y ago
I've never heard a software developer complain about the software problems they face. The quality of the code, yes, the idiocy of management, the bureaucracy of the corporate environment...but all of those are or stem from people problems, not innate to the actual process of generating code that does something. I doubt that anyone has ever left a job because the software problems they were solving were too hard. I'm not saying your base point, that the reality of work is that some of it is unpleasant, is wrong; I largely agree with that (as even if you manage to build a product by yourself that is commercially successful, you start having to deal with users, meaning back to people problems). I -am- disagreeing with your example (because defining the source of the problems is necessary to improving your workplace, or finding a better one)
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  s/hard/boring/, and I think plenty of people left over that. Also, I left a job once because the problems I was solving were too hard and frustrating for me - that is, I was given CTO's paper on some math stuff and told to "code it", without having any explanations to what's that for and how it will be used. I guess I wasn't in the mood then for forced intellectual challenge of understanding the basics of the math field this paper was in. For me, I never get angry about programming problems. But I do get frustrated over e.g. the whole idea of the project I'm working on, or some design decisions made in it.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  >I doubt that anyone has ever left a job because the software problems they were solving were too hard. I completely disagree. Why do you think some software developers move into management? Obviously, people like that are more interested in people problems than in coding problems.
Amygaz 10y ago
Something being hard doesn't mean it is unpleasant. And the "pride in doing a job well" will not only be beneficial but also rewarding, which can increase happiness and lead to novelty. As an example, you may hold grudge about a coding problem, but when you beat it and find the solution, you are instantly satisfied, gain self-gratification, if the problem was important to others you also gain gratification from your peers, and in the process you learn a new way to solve a problem

gadders 10y ago

If work was that much fun, they wouldn't have to pay us to make us do it.

k__ 10y ago
Well, there are many OSS/FS projects out there, where people do exactly that. Do that work without getting paid. It's not the software work per se that isn't fun most of the time. Often the problem is that people who have no idea about software development want to shape "how" we work. "I pay you mad bucks for this, so you have to sit here and be watched multiple times a day so you I know you're really working!"
- gadders 10y ago
  Is that the exact same work as what they do in their day job? I'm not saying software isn't fun, I'm saying that the stuff you choose to do in your free time is less fun than the software you do 9-5. Admittedly some lucky people get paid to work on the open-source thing they created, but they're in a tiny minority.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Maybe I'm a weird case, but most of the time the part in which the work is paid for is enough for me to immediately lose interest. That is, I can do equivalent work 10x faster as long as I'm doing it out of my own motivation, and not because someone expects me to do it. (Yeah, I had problems with assignments in school too. I'm just wired this way.)
enraged_camel 10y ago
I don't buy this premise. You get paid to work because your work creates value for someone. Whether you have fun doing the work is quite irrelevant. You could argue people would be willing to work for less if it was fun and you would have a point. But the idea that the other party is paying you to work because it is unfun is bonkers.
- ghaff 10y ago
  They're willing/able to pay you because your work is creating value. They usually have to pay you for a variety of reasons: - It's not so much fun that you're willing to do it for free - You can't afford to do it for free even if you would be willing to do so in principle - Someone else is willing to pay you to do more or less the same thing
onion2k 10y ago
Yes, they would. We demand money for our work, even when we find it tremendously fun, because we need to pay for food and shelter. If you were to take that need away (by either providing food and shelter for free or by providing a universal basic income) then we'll start working on fun things for free.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  A UBI won't change things that much. The key word in UBI is "Basic". If I could get $200k for doing nothing, then yeah, I'd just get myself a nice place and vacation and work on some interesting FOSS projects on my own, and if I get pissed off at the other collaborators for some reason I'd quit and go find a different hobby project. But that's not what UBI does, and UBI wouldn't work (at least not in the near term) if it were like that. UBI is a basic income: it gives you just enough so you're not starving or living on the street. I don't know about you, but I don't really want to eat cheap, crappy food and live in the ghetto. So even with a UBI, I'm going to want to have an unhappy job so I can afford a nice place and a nicer lifestyle. I can see the UBI making it so that fewer people take really crappy jobs though: poorly-paid jobs that are dangerous or just plain miserable. Why work for some asshole boss, perhaps working in a hot kitchen at some greasy-spoon restaurant, if you can just sit at home with your UBI and not deal with that stress and hot grease splattering on you? Sure, working the crappy job will give you more money than just having the UBI, since the job doesn't take away your UBI, but if the job is that miserable, it'll either go unfilled or the boss will have to pay more to get people to want to bother with it. But software development is rarely that bad, and is much more highly paid due to its difficult nature. They're not going to have much trouble, under a UBI system, finding people willing to do boring ERP system development for 6 figures.
ArkyBeagle 10y ago
"They pay us" because we don't all have trust funds. Most jobs, even what people consider good-paying ones, barely cover the cost of showing up.

lostcolony 10y ago

I've never heard a software developer complain about the software problems they face. The quality of the code, yes, the idiocy of management, the bureaucracy of the corporate environment...but all of those are or stem from people problems, not innate to the actual process of generating code that does something. I doubt that anyone has ever left a job because the software problems they were solving were too hard. I'm not saying your base point, that the reality of work is that some of it is unpleasant, is wrong; I largely agree with that (as even if you manage to build a product by yourself that is commercially successful, you start having to deal with users, meaning back to people problems). I -am- disagreeing with your example (because defining the source of the problems is necessary to improving your workplace, or finding a better one)

TeMPOraL 10y ago
s/hard/boring/, and I think plenty of people left over that. Also, I left a job once because the problems I was solving were too hard and frustrating for me - that is, I was given CTO's paper on some math stuff and told to "code it", without having any explanations to what's that for and how it will be used. I guess I wasn't in the mood then for forced intellectual challenge of understanding the basics of the math field this paper was in. For me, I never get angry about programming problems. But I do get frustrated over e.g. the whole idea of the project I'm working on, or some design decisions made in it.
Grishnakh 10y ago
>I doubt that anyone has ever left a job because the software problems they were solving were too hard. I completely disagree. Why do you think some software developers move into management? Obviously, people like that are more interested in people problems than in coding problems.

Amygaz 10y ago

Something being hard doesn't mean it is unpleasant. And the "pride in doing a job well" will not only be beneficial but also rewarding, which can increase happiness and lead to novelty. As an example, you may hold grudge about a coding problem, but when you beat it and find the solution, you are instantly satisfied, gain self-gratification, if the problem was important to others you also gain gratification from your peers, and in the process you learn a new way to solve a problem