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I think people are upset because we're creating a lot of technical debt here. Every new "feature" we add creates a larger learning curve, makes a system that mu

I think people are upset because we're creating a lot of technical debt here. Every new "feature" we add creates a larger learning curve, makes a system that much more complex, and adds more to our maintenance costs. A simple and modular system that allows the user to combine easy-to-understand-parts in a succinct fashion to achieve functionality that __meets their requirements__ usually is superior to monolithic one-size-fits-all solutions. In short, composition generally is preferable to monoliths (after a certain point in complexity.) I think most of us agree to this, and I haven't said anything we all don't already know. We just all disagree where that complexity tipping point is, and that's why some of us hate systemd and some of us don't see the problem.

mgbmtl 10y ago
Speaking of technical debt, I'm not sure if "nohup as a process management scheme" is a good one. Similar to "screen/tmux as a daemon manager". (I'm not saying tmux is bad, I use it all the time. I just don't use it as a daemon manager -- If I understand correctly, they do provide a way to fix screen/tmux.) Systemd generally tries to standardize how to declare common things about a process: - should it be automatically restarted if it does? at what interval? - where are its logs? - how to tell if the process is alive or not? - can we isolate the process? (tmp files) - and now: should this process continue to run even if the user has logged out? And yep, I'm an old schooler who just got tired of dealing with duct tape solutions.
- dkuntz2 10y ago
  You don't have to use tmux as a daemon manager to find this change annoying. The way we do development where I work is by having two people ssh into a server, and open a joint tmux session. These sessions generally last a week or more, and you generally log out of ssh daily. Or even if you're not pairing, just being disconnected over lunch is a long enough time for SSH to disconnect. Finding ways to overcome that (besides changing the systemd config) are even more duck tape fixes. Automatically terminating processes when a user logs out is a bad default. Sure, leave it as an option because there might be some people that would find it useful, but changing the default without a good reason is bad policy.
  - mgbmtl 10y ago
    As I said, I'm a huge fan of tmux. I would be concerned if they broke tmux, but it does not seem to be the case. I've seen people run "nohup [program]" and logout, not even run it in a tmux. If systemd killed their program, I would be quite happy about it.

mgbmtl 10y ago

Speaking of technical debt, I'm not sure if "nohup as a process management scheme" is a good one. Similar to "screen/tmux as a daemon manager". (I'm not saying tmux is bad, I use it all the time. I just don't use it as a daemon manager -- If I understand correctly, they do provide a way to fix screen/tmux.) Systemd generally tries to standardize how to declare common things about a process: - should it be automatically restarted if it does? at what interval? - where are its logs? - how to tell if the process is alive or not? - can we isolate the process? (tmp files) - and now: should this process continue to run even if the user has logged out? And yep, I'm an old schooler who just got tired of dealing with duct tape solutions.

dkuntz2 10y ago
You don't have to use tmux as a daemon manager to find this change annoying. The way we do development where I work is by having two people ssh into a server, and open a joint tmux session. These sessions generally last a week or more, and you generally log out of ssh daily. Or even if you're not pairing, just being disconnected over lunch is a long enough time for SSH to disconnect. Finding ways to overcome that (besides changing the systemd config) are even more duck tape fixes. Automatically terminating processes when a user logs out is a bad default. Sure, leave it as an option because there might be some people that would find it useful, but changing the default without a good reason is bad policy.
- mgbmtl 10y ago
  As I said, I'm a huge fan of tmux. I would be concerned if they broke tmux, but it does not seem to be the case. I've seen people run "nohup [program]" and logout, not even run it in a tmux. If systemd killed their program, I would be quite happy about it.