8 ms·

Paywall :( I haaate these numerical ranking systems. Bank of America had one when I worked there. Managers would have meetings with each other to match their w

by bpchaps 10y ago

Paywall :( I haaate these numerical ranking systems. Bank of America had one when I worked there. Managers would have meetings with each other to match their workers with ranks. Really, really long meetings. So long that my boss apologized to me after the meeting to discuss my ranking.. because heleft before my name came up and there was no followup meeting. I ended up being ranked towards the bottom, I didn't get a raise, and the bonus was meh. When I left, they told me that my performance was great and that they wanted to give me a substantial raise, since apparently, my pay was far below what it should be. They then had to replace my weekend shift with four others for a while. Most of the team was gone a bit later.

gohrt 10y ago
I have great coworkers who used to work at BofA... which makes me think it maybe past time to migrate away.
- bpchaps 10y ago
  It sounds like they used to be much better. When I joined in 2010, they were working on a shift towards a new management style with metrics and the whole nine yards. That management style also resulted in their backend risk management system using rot13 for authentication because the developers "didn't have enough time to implement something better." Being able to read, in plaintext, their production mortgage database's read/write password was pretty interesting. I avoid them like the plague now.
  - danek 10y ago
    Wow, that's pretty bad. Metrics-driven management is one of those things that sounds like a smart thing to do but it ends up being counterproductive. It's really hard to measure the things that are important so we have to use proxies. Except optimizing a proxy is not the same thing as optimizing the thing you care about. And this is how we end up with production databases using rot13 for encryption :)
    - 13of40 10y ago
      Back when I was in management, I used to collect concrete metrics like "you keep closing work items, but it's been three months since you checked in any code" or "you're employed as a tester but you only opened two bugs last year and they were both by design". Of course people could game it, and maybe they did, but it went a long way toward identifying the people who were just straight-up asleep at their desks.
  - cwilkes 10y ago
    Did the next generation make encryption 2x better by having double rot13?
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      They might as well have, honestly. I found it on accident when tying to link my group's database to the risk management system, since it was also their internal cluster computing system. It was more or less a giant python object store, including code. It had zero documentation and since I worked second, I had to figure it without any devs online. Eventually found the password store after looking through other groups' production code. Turns out that double clicking on an object showed its code and anything linked to it, so once you have the password function object, you get all linked password hashes. Double clicking the hashes then ran its linked function - rot13 - and printed it to the screen. This was in 2011, so they should've known better! I've seen some pretty bad stuff, but that was pretty up there.
danek 10y ago
The sad thing is that the managers participating in these sorts of activities are unable to connect cause & effect. For example, if you rank individual employees then you destroy teamwork and incentivise all sorts of behavior that's bad for the company. It hurts morale, lowers productivity, increases employee turnover, increases hiring costs, lowers product quality, etc. It's a vicious cycle. And for someone who thinks it's a good idea to rank employees, these effects will simply confirm their beliefs that they need to rank employees. Why does this happen? In the best case, it's a misguided attempt at career development. Or it's a way to figure out who to give more money and who to fire. Usually there is an element of fear: "I'm afraid my employees will not work hard unless there is the threat of a bad performance review". To be fair, ranking employees does sound like a good idea if you don't know anything about humans. Most management activities are really just things that sound like a good idea (but fall apart under scrutiny). To be more fair, bad management is the norm, so no one has good mentors and role models. "If everyone else does this, then it can't be wrong." It's another vicious cycle.
- abraae 10y ago
  Without ranking of some form, how do you identify the best people and reward them accordingly?
  - quanticle 10y ago
    That's exactly the problem. You're assuming that there is a single metric of "best" that you can rank people on. Even in programming, there are a number of separate skills: algorithm design, systems architecture, debugging, etc. Is a programmer who can sit down with an unfamiliar codebase and be productive with it in a week's time "better" than a programmer who is great at designing scalable systems from scratch? You need a mix of technical skills, not just a team overloaded with whatever people and skills a particular manager finds interesting. I think the biggest problem with your statement is that you're trying to identify the best people, rather than the best teams.
    - abraae 10y ago
      I'm just posing the question. We can assume that the HR people at Goldman Sachs are not idiots. There was no obviously better system or they and many other companies would have used it. So lets say you identify the best team (itself a flawed concept - is sales more important than development, since they bring in the cash?) , then do you propose to treat everyone in the team the same? What about the new hire into the team who is struggling and should never have been a developer in the first place? What about the lazy stoner? What about the girl genius who reworked the problem areas over a weekend? Should they all get the same raise because they're on the same team?
Trombono 10y ago
Copy the link address and search for it in Google. This will bring up the article without the paywall.
- libria 10y ago
  Or just click the | web | link under the title
jrockway 10y ago
That's really interesting. I was at BAC at about the same time as you (based on other comments), and we still had a non-numerical performance system ("Meets Meets", I remember getting, but I'm not sure what the two categories were).
- bpchaps 10y ago
  I think I was told about it with some secrecy in mind, actually. My manager there felt really bad about the situation and wanted to clear it up before any fallout happened, i think.
  - pc86 10y ago
    I'm not sure how your manager felt saying sorry was enough given that him leaving a meeting early had a direct negative impact on your salary and bonus.
    - bpchaps 10y ago
      I wasn't so mad at him as mad as I was other things, really. I left within three months of that, I think. That was just one problem of maybe 50. Even with that shitty experience, it was still worth it with career in mind. I was supporting both of BAML's FX systems, including doing Sunday market open by myself for a couple hours. It was my first "serious" job and at the time I didn't know what common job practices were, including proper pay. As soon as I found out I could make more elsewhere, I left.. with a 40k pay increase. Considering the number and size of trades going through the platform, it's incredibly insulting that they thought my pay was industry acceptable. Hell, a year after I quit (the rest of the team was gone at this point), they wanted me to offer me a job in NYC, making me less than my job as php programmer (without knowing php) in Chicago.
      - jrockway 10y ago
        You worked in Chicago? Did we know each other and I'm just not making a connection to your username?
shepardrtc 10y ago
The moment your boss essentialy said, 'Hey, I wasn't there to determine to fate of the rest of your career at this company,' you should have walked right out the door. Who cares if he apologizes? If a manager doesn't watch out for their employees, they're not a good manager.
- bpchaps 10y ago
  Well, as much as I disliked the manager, I don't think there was much he could've done. He legit had to leave to go somewhere. My gripe is with baml, not necessarily him.

by bpchaps 10y ago

gohrt 10y ago

I have great coworkers who used to work at BofA... which makes me think it maybe past time to migrate away.

bpchaps 10y ago
It sounds like they used to be much better. When I joined in 2010, they were working on a shift towards a new management style with metrics and the whole nine yards. That management style also resulted in their backend risk management system using rot13 for authentication because the developers "didn't have enough time to implement something better." Being able to read, in plaintext, their production mortgage database's read/write password was pretty interesting. I avoid them like the plague now.
- danek 10y ago
  Wow, that's pretty bad. Metrics-driven management is one of those things that sounds like a smart thing to do but it ends up being counterproductive. It's really hard to measure the things that are important so we have to use proxies. Except optimizing a proxy is not the same thing as optimizing the thing you care about. And this is how we end up with production databases using rot13 for encryption :)
  - 13of40 10y ago
    Back when I was in management, I used to collect concrete metrics like "you keep closing work items, but it's been three months since you checked in any code" or "you're employed as a tester but you only opened two bugs last year and they were both by design". Of course people could game it, and maybe they did, but it went a long way toward identifying the people who were just straight-up asleep at their desks.
- cwilkes 10y ago
  Did the next generation make encryption 2x better by having double rot13?
  - bpchaps 10y ago
    They might as well have, honestly. I found it on accident when tying to link my group's database to the risk management system, since it was also their internal cluster computing system. It was more or less a giant python object store, including code. It had zero documentation and since I worked second, I had to figure it without any devs online. Eventually found the password store after looking through other groups' production code. Turns out that double clicking on an object showed its code and anything linked to it, so once you have the password function object, you get all linked password hashes. Double clicking the hashes then ran its linked function - rot13 - and printed it to the screen. This was in 2011, so they should've known better! I've seen some pretty bad stuff, but that was pretty up there.

danek 10y ago

The sad thing is that the managers participating in these sorts of activities are unable to connect cause & effect. For example, if you rank individual employees then you destroy teamwork and incentivise all sorts of behavior that's bad for the company. It hurts morale, lowers productivity, increases employee turnover, increases hiring costs, lowers product quality, etc. It's a vicious cycle. And for someone who thinks it's a good idea to rank employees, these effects will simply confirm their beliefs that they need to rank employees. Why does this happen? In the best case, it's a misguided attempt at career development. Or it's a way to figure out who to give more money and who to fire. Usually there is an element of fear: "I'm afraid my employees will not work hard unless there is the threat of a bad performance review". To be fair, ranking employees does sound like a good idea if you don't know anything about humans. Most management activities are really just things that sound like a good idea (but fall apart under scrutiny). To be more fair, bad management is the norm, so no one has good mentors and role models. "If everyone else does this, then it can't be wrong." It's another vicious cycle.

abraae 10y ago
Without ranking of some form, how do you identify the best people and reward them accordingly?
- quanticle 10y ago
  That's exactly the problem. You're assuming that there is a single metric of "best" that you can rank people on. Even in programming, there are a number of separate skills: algorithm design, systems architecture, debugging, etc. Is a programmer who can sit down with an unfamiliar codebase and be productive with it in a week's time "better" than a programmer who is great at designing scalable systems from scratch? You need a mix of technical skills, not just a team overloaded with whatever people and skills a particular manager finds interesting. I think the biggest problem with your statement is that you're trying to identify the best people, rather than the best teams.
  - abraae 10y ago
    I'm just posing the question. We can assume that the HR people at Goldman Sachs are not idiots. There was no obviously better system or they and many other companies would have used it. So lets say you identify the best team (itself a flawed concept - is sales more important than development, since they bring in the cash?) , then do you propose to treat everyone in the team the same? What about the new hire into the team who is struggling and should never have been a developer in the first place? What about the lazy stoner? What about the girl genius who reworked the problem areas over a weekend? Should they all get the same raise because they're on the same team?

Trombono 10y ago

Copy the link address and search for it in Google. This will bring up the article without the paywall.

libria 10y ago
Or just click the | web | link under the title

jrockway 10y ago

That's really interesting. I was at BAC at about the same time as you (based on other comments), and we still had a non-numerical performance system ("Meets Meets", I remember getting, but I'm not sure what the two categories were).

bpchaps 10y ago
I think I was told about it with some secrecy in mind, actually. My manager there felt really bad about the situation and wanted to clear it up before any fallout happened, i think.
- pc86 10y ago
  I'm not sure how your manager felt saying sorry was enough given that him leaving a meeting early had a direct negative impact on your salary and bonus.
  - bpchaps 10y ago
    I wasn't so mad at him as mad as I was other things, really. I left within three months of that, I think. That was just one problem of maybe 50. Even with that shitty experience, it was still worth it with career in mind. I was supporting both of BAML's FX systems, including doing Sunday market open by myself for a couple hours. It was my first "serious" job and at the time I didn't know what common job practices were, including proper pay. As soon as I found out I could make more elsewhere, I left.. with a 40k pay increase. Considering the number and size of trades going through the platform, it's incredibly insulting that they thought my pay was industry acceptable. Hell, a year after I quit (the rest of the team was gone at this point), they wanted me to offer me a job in NYC, making me less than my job as php programmer (without knowing php) in Chicago.
    - jrockway 10y ago
      You worked in Chicago? Did we know each other and I'm just not making a connection to your username?

shepardrtc 10y ago

The moment your boss essentialy said, 'Hey, I wasn't there to determine to fate of the rest of your career at this company,' you should have walked right out the door. Who cares if he apologizes? If a manager doesn't watch out for their employees, they're not a good manager.

bpchaps 10y ago
Well, as much as I disliked the manager, I don't think there was much he could've done. He legit had to leave to go somewhere. My gripe is with baml, not necessarily him.