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>The subjective experience is merely an identity based on cultural stereotypes of "man-ness" and "woman-ness". Why do you assume this to be the case? Why would

>The subjective experience is merely an identity based on cultural stereotypes of "man-ness" and "woman-ness". Why do you assume this to be the case? Why would you conclude that it is impossibility that someone's biological sex may not be the same as biological gender? It would be really surprising if this didn't happen given what we know about genetics and how sex is determined. Subjective != not real: Pain is a subjective experience, does this mean that anesthetic should not be given during surgery. What if only some percentage of the population could experience pain? Would that make their suffering less real?

x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
> Why would you conclude that it is impossibility that someone's biological sex may not be the same as biological gender? Because I have no reason to believe biological gender exists separate from biological sex. No one can point to it nor create a test for it.
- Vraxx 10y ago
  So a non-insignificant number of people claiming it to be the case isn't a good enough reason to believe that it's a possibility? What is the threshold for you to consider this possibility? Do you not believe anything subjective then, because by definition "no one can point to it nor create a test for it"? edit: It seems to me that it costs a person almost nothing to believe somebody about their subjective belief of their gender, yet it seems that a lot of people resist so strongly. Why is this?
  - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
    I believe subjectivity exists, but not in its supremacy over objectivity. My objections on the topic are fairly simple: * We shouldn't create laws around activities or identities that cannot be objectively measured. * Peoples personally held identities shouldn't be foisted up such that everyone must accept them unquestionably. People should be free to love, fuck, marry whomever they want and express themselves in whatever degree of masculinity or femininity they are comfortable with. If we had widely known gender-neutral pronouns, I would use them.
    - Vraxx 10y ago
      Ah. Well it seems we agree almost entirely, to be clear, before I was not really talking within the context of forming laws, but more on individual interaction. I generally agree on the foisting of beliefs onto people, but have found that it is typically not much trouble (word choice mostly) to accommodate the beliefs that we were arguing over. I think your last sentence is very enlightening to your point of view and probably wouldn't have tried to pick an argument if I had interpreted that belief sooner.
      - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
        > I think your last sentence is very enlightening to your point of view and probably wouldn't have tried to pick an argument if I had interpreted that belief sooner. This is a big problem with the growing predominance of "virtue signaling" in such discussions. Few people actually want to read/listen and understand someone's point of view before jumping on them for having the "wrong opinion."
    - askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
      But don't we have to create those laws, sometimes? I'm thinking about the difference between homicide degrees, which include a subjective perspective: the intent of the accused. We do develop standards for manslaughter versus murder 1, but my understanding is that the accused killer's mindset (their "intent") is an important distinction.
- EthanHeilman 10y ago
  >Because I have no reason to believe biological gender exists separate for biological sex. Most traits associated with sex are not universally determined by sex. One example in humans is males that have XX chromosomes[0]. For another example see AIS[1]. We observe more than two genders expressed in non-human animals: >Side-blotched lizards are notable for having the highest number of distinct male and female morphs or "genders" within a species: three male and two female. [2] It is extremely unlikely that given the diversity of phenotype expression we see in life there would be no cases in which sex does not match gender. A claim that sex and gender match perfectly in all cases requires enormous evidentary support as it contradicts much of current science and biology. >No one can point to it nor create a test for it. You can ask someone, that is generally how we determine how much pain someone is in. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#XY_karyotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrom... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-blotched_lizard#Genders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-blotched_lizard#Genders
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
    I don't think you've demonstrated the existence of biological gender as much as the well-known category of biological intersexuality. I have no objection to the degree that someone wants to express themselves with stereotypical masculine or feminine traits. Elevating cultural stereotypes to the level of phenotype is not supported by anything you've linked to, though. >> No one can point to it nor create a test for it. > You can ask someone, that is generally how we determine how much pain someone is in. This is true, but we don't create laws around someone's reported degree of pain. Doctors are also given then discretion to deny someone pain medication if they believe the patient is lying in order to get high (though I disagree with this on grounds of drug decriminalization).

x3n0ph3n3 10y ago

> Why would you conclude that it is impossibility that someone's biological sex may not be the same as biological gender? Because I have no reason to believe biological gender exists separate from biological sex. No one can point to it nor create a test for it.

Vraxx 10y ago
So a non-insignificant number of people claiming it to be the case isn't a good enough reason to believe that it's a possibility? What is the threshold for you to consider this possibility? Do you not believe anything subjective then, because by definition "no one can point to it nor create a test for it"? edit: It seems to me that it costs a person almost nothing to believe somebody about their subjective belief of their gender, yet it seems that a lot of people resist so strongly. Why is this?
- x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
  I believe subjectivity exists, but not in its supremacy over objectivity. My objections on the topic are fairly simple: * We shouldn't create laws around activities or identities that cannot be objectively measured. * Peoples personally held identities shouldn't be foisted up such that everyone must accept them unquestionably. People should be free to love, fuck, marry whomever they want and express themselves in whatever degree of masculinity or femininity they are comfortable with. If we had widely known gender-neutral pronouns, I would use them.
  - Vraxx 10y ago
    Ah. Well it seems we agree almost entirely, to be clear, before I was not really talking within the context of forming laws, but more on individual interaction. I generally agree on the foisting of beliefs onto people, but have found that it is typically not much trouble (word choice mostly) to accommodate the beliefs that we were arguing over. I think your last sentence is very enlightening to your point of view and probably wouldn't have tried to pick an argument if I had interpreted that belief sooner.
    - x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
      > I think your last sentence is very enlightening to your point of view and probably wouldn't have tried to pick an argument if I had interpreted that belief sooner. This is a big problem with the growing predominance of "virtue signaling" in such discussions. Few people actually want to read/listen and understand someone's point of view before jumping on them for having the "wrong opinion."
  - askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
    But don't we have to create those laws, sometimes? I'm thinking about the difference between homicide degrees, which include a subjective perspective: the intent of the accused. We do develop standards for manslaughter versus murder 1, but my understanding is that the accused killer's mindset (their "intent") is an important distinction.
EthanHeilman 10y ago
>Because I have no reason to believe biological gender exists separate for biological sex. Most traits associated with sex are not universally determined by sex. One example in humans is males that have XX chromosomes[0]. For another example see AIS[1]. We observe more than two genders expressed in non-human animals: >Side-blotched lizards are notable for having the highest number of distinct male and female morphs or "genders" within a species: three male and two female. [2] It is extremely unlikely that given the diversity of phenotype expression we see in life there would be no cases in which sex does not match gender. A claim that sex and gender match perfectly in all cases requires enormous evidentary support as it contradicts much of current science and biology. >No one can point to it nor create a test for it. You can ask someone, that is generally how we determine how much pain someone is in. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#XY_karyotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrom... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-blotched_lizard#Genders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-blotched_lizard#Genders
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- x3n0ph3n3 10y ago
  I don't think you've demonstrated the existence of biological gender as much as the well-known category of biological intersexuality. I have no objection to the degree that someone wants to express themselves with stereotypical masculine or feminine traits. Elevating cultural stereotypes to the level of phenotype is not supported by anything you've linked to, though. >> No one can point to it nor create a test for it. > You can ask someone, that is generally how we determine how much pain someone is in. This is true, but we don't create laws around someone's reported degree of pain. Doctors are also given then discretion to deny someone pain medication if they believe the patient is lying in order to get high (though I disagree with this on grounds of drug decriminalization).