4 ms·

>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If th

>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.

sevensor 10y ago
They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. Agreed. People make laws. People have a right to point the finger once in awhile to justify new laws or policies
  - sevensor 10y ago
    I don't know where you got "no one does wrong" from my comments. Allow me to clarify. Students are cheating. This is wrong. Universities are institutionally indifferent to student learning. This is wrong too. The latter is our point of disagreement. You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system.
    - studentrob 10y ago
      > You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system. American students already know by their college years that cheating has immediate negative consequences Why should the college need to hold the hand of foreign students who haven't been taught this by their home countries? New country, new laws, new culture. It's to be expected
      - ethanbond 10y ago
        Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves despite GP ostensibly not being a cheater himself. Sure a university should try to prevent cheating, and they do, but how far can they go? I don't want the costs of my education to skyrocket and the stresses on my professors to amplify just because some foreign students don't perceive an inherent wrongness with cheating.
        sevensor 10y ago
        I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students. The difference is that American students do a lot of things that don't feel like cheating to them. For example, fraternities sharing libraries of old exams and problem sets, versus outright plagiarism and ringers sitting for exams.
        ethanbond 10y ago
        The research establishes that virtually everyone cheats "just a little bit," and I think that sharing backwork falls under that "little bit" in most circumstances. At least at my school, backwork is demonstrably different seeing as one of the service fraternities officially, publicly distributes backwork for students to check out/scan/return. Some of the old exams are actually contributed by the professors themselves. Crucially, the amount of effort necessary to combat backwork sharing, should a professor see it as a problem, is pretty miniscule. I've taken numerous classes that either had no backwork available (hand-counting the number of tests given to the class), or that had totally useless backwork (changing the test format). Compare that to combatting students hiring test takers and paper writers? I know tons of students who utilize backwork, very very few who use unauthorized resources (e.g. cellphones) during exams (I've seen it happen once maybe twice), and no one who would ever consider a ringer. Do you really believe that these are all of the same severity and total damage to academic integrity? Regardless of whatever anecdata either of us can come up with, there are substantial cultural differences on this topic, isn't there? That's a serious question – I've always been led to believe that's the case, but I'm not an expert on Chinese culture by any stretch.

sevensor 10y ago

They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.
- studentrob 10y ago
  > I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. Agreed. People make laws. People have a right to point the finger once in awhile to justify new laws or policies
- sevensor 10y ago
  I don't know where you got "no one does wrong" from my comments. Allow me to clarify. Students are cheating. This is wrong. Universities are institutionally indifferent to student learning. This is wrong too. The latter is our point of disagreement. You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system. American students already know by their college years that cheating has immediate negative consequences Why should the college need to hold the hand of foreign students who haven't been taught this by their home countries? New country, new laws, new culture. It's to be expected
    - ethanbond 10y ago
      Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves despite GP ostensibly not being a cheater himself. Sure a university should try to prevent cheating, and they do, but how far can they go? I don't want the costs of my education to skyrocket and the stresses on my professors to amplify just because some foreign students don't perceive an inherent wrongness with cheating.
      - sevensor 10y ago
        I don't think anything prevents rampant cheating by American students. The difference is that American students do a lot of things that don't feel like cheating to them. For example, fraternities sharing libraries of old exams and problem sets, versus outright plagiarism and ringers sitting for exams.
        ethanbond 10y ago
        The research establishes that virtually everyone cheats "just a little bit," and I think that sharing backwork falls under that "little bit" in most circumstances. At least at my school, backwork is demonstrably different seeing as one of the service fraternities officially, publicly distributes backwork for students to check out/scan/return. Some of the old exams are actually contributed by the professors themselves. Crucially, the amount of effort necessary to combat backwork sharing, should a professor see it as a problem, is pretty miniscule. I've taken numerous classes that either had no backwork available (hand-counting the number of tests given to the class), or that had totally useless backwork (changing the test format). Compare that to combatting students hiring test takers and paper writers? I know tons of students who utilize backwork, very very few who use unauthorized resources (e.g. cellphones) during exams (I've seen it happen once maybe twice), and no one who would ever consider a ringer. Do you really believe that these are all of the same severity and total damage to academic integrity? Regardless of whatever anecdata either of us can come up with, there are substantial cultural differences on this topic, isn't there? That's a serious question – I've always been led to believe that's the case, but I'm not an expert on Chinese culture by any stretch.