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I used to teach at a community college which attracted a lot of Chinese students. I found that for the most part they legitimately wanted to learn the subject

I used to teach at a community college which attracted a lot of Chinese students. I found that for the most part they legitimately wanted to learn the subject I was teaching, but that the language barrier was a problem for many. They would sit in the back and the student with the best comprehension would quietly translate for the rest. When it came to assignments, they did their own work as far as I could tell. So when I read reports like the article, I see this more as an indictment of the U.S. university system (as opposed to the CC system) than of Chinese students. My own experience tells me that there are plenty of students who are willing to do the work, so we're deliberately importing students who aren't, and doing so disproportionately into the university system. I see this as symptomatic of the "I'll pretend to teach and you pretend to learn" culture currently strangling undergraduate instruction at R1 universities.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.
- sevensor 10y ago
  They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.
  - drzaiusapelord 10y ago
    Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.
    - studentrob 10y ago
      > I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. Agreed. People make laws. People have a right to point the finger once in awhile to justify new laws or policies
    - sevensor 10y ago
      I don't know where you got "no one does wrong" from my comments. Allow me to clarify. Students are cheating. This is wrong. Universities are institutionally indifferent to student learning. This is wrong too. The latter is our point of disagreement. You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system.
      - studentrob 10y ago
        > You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system. American students already know by their college years that cheating has immediate negative consequences Why should the college need to hold the hand of foreign students who haven't been taught this by their home countries? New country, new laws, new culture. It's to be expected
        ethanbond 10y ago
        Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves despite GP ostensibly not being a cheater himself. Sure a university should try to prevent cheating, and they do, but how far can they go? I don't want the costs of my education to skyrocket and the stresses on my professors to amplify just because some foreign students don't perceive an inherent wrongness with cheating.
TheCowboy 10y ago
I figured I'd add my anecdotal experience from the perspective of a student, having been to college before and after every answer was online. My experiences are mostly interacting with non-international students as well. As far as cheating on homework, I feel like it is quite common to just look up answers online, and many people are quite open about doing so. It comes in different forms. There is what I consider "soft cheating," where people will work on a problem and look it up if they can't figure it out. They intentionally penalize themselves a few points, or if they can't understand how the answer was arrived at tall they will intentionally leave it blank or leave a wrong answer. One time a person I knew refused to write something for an answer even though I thought he understood and explained it to him (talking about homeworks was allowed as long as you list them as a collaborator), because he didn't think he could put it in his own words. Then there are people who flagrantly don't care, or don't see it as a problem. Often their justification is that the university system is a sham, or that everyone else does it. Some people seem to have gotten through by relying on homework helper sites, and scrape by just on getting perfect homework schools while bombing tests. I feel like I have to compete in this environment, but see it as a personal challenge. The problem is that I suspect professors have adjusted by over-assigning homework to compensate, so it makes it more time-consuming to do well. I personally feel this is a broken situation. Professors should probably change their approach, and just outright allow the use of secondary sources as long as they are cited. I know a few who seem to implicitly allow this, but most students fear citing work as possibly indicting them as cheaters. I'd view this as a temporary solution until we figure out a better approach that maintains institutional academic integrity, encourages learning, and fairly evaluates performance.
- TheCowboy 10y ago
  I got downvoted and can't edit my response, but wanted to add that I'm not endorsing or advocating cheating, or trying to paint anyone as inherently dishonest. I just think the system will have to adapt to the new reality, and should acknowledge that this info is widely available.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago

>so we're deliberately importing students who aren't Except most, if not all, of these universities have strict English requirements and fluency testing. If they're cheating to get past those, which is a known issue, why are you indicting the US educational system? How can you stop English fluency cheating when the students don't see anything wrong with it? Perceiving them as the victim at this point is ridiculous.

sevensor 10y ago
They're playing the system, and the system is playing them. Everybody loses, and neither party is innocent. In the short term, the people who pay the most disproportionate price are the honest students, especially the many honest Chinese students who aren't involved in cheating. In the long run, we in the U.S. will have to face the music for over-pricing and devaluing the university experience, and China will have to reckon with the fact that many of its expensively Western-educated professionals have no skills other than fraud.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  Just because I sell an expensive product doesn't give you the right to rip me off nor does it make me guilty of anything. I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. No one is pointing a gun at these kids to come to the states and commit fraud.
  - studentrob 10y ago
    > I'm fairly sick of this "no one does wrong" attitude and the complete lack of personal responsibility here. Agreed. People make laws. People have a right to point the finger once in awhile to justify new laws or policies
  - sevensor 10y ago
    I don't know where you got "no one does wrong" from my comments. Allow me to clarify. Students are cheating. This is wrong. Universities are institutionally indifferent to student learning. This is wrong too. The latter is our point of disagreement. You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system.
    - studentrob 10y ago
      > You make it clear in your first sentence that you don't think there's anything wrong with the university system, and that the institution is an innocent victim here. On the other hand, I think there's plenty wrong with the system. American students already know by their college years that cheating has immediate negative consequences Why should the college need to hold the hand of foreign students who haven't been taught this by their home countries? New country, new laws, new culture. It's to be expected
      - ethanbond 10y ago
        Yeah, I'm not sure what GP thinks prevents rampant cheating from American students. It's not elaborate cheat detection systems — most students don't cheat simply because they choose not to. And to act like this isn't a problem unique to Chinese students is a cop out. Culturally, there just isn't the same overwhelmingly negative view of cheating, and that difference is seeping through GP's justifications themselves despite GP ostensibly not being a cheater himself. Sure a university should try to prevent cheating, and they do, but how far can they go? I don't want the costs of my education to skyrocket and the stresses on my professors to amplify just because some foreign students don't perceive an inherent wrongness with cheating.

TheCowboy 10y ago

I figured I'd add my anecdotal experience from the perspective of a student, having been to college before and after every answer was online. My experiences are mostly interacting with non-international students as well. As far as cheating on homework, I feel like it is quite common to just look up answers online, and many people are quite open about doing so. It comes in different forms. There is what I consider "soft cheating," where people will work on a problem and look it up if they can't figure it out. They intentionally penalize themselves a few points, or if they can't understand how the answer was arrived at tall they will intentionally leave it blank or leave a wrong answer. One time a person I knew refused to write something for an answer even though I thought he understood and explained it to him (talking about homeworks was allowed as long as you list them as a collaborator), because he didn't think he could put it in his own words. Then there are people who flagrantly don't care, or don't see it as a problem. Often their justification is that the university system is a sham, or that everyone else does it. Some people seem to have gotten through by relying on homework helper sites, and scrape by just on getting perfect homework schools while bombing tests. I feel like I have to compete in this environment, but see it as a personal challenge. The problem is that I suspect professors have adjusted by over-assigning homework to compensate, so it makes it more time-consuming to do well. I personally feel this is a broken situation. Professors should probably change their approach, and just outright allow the use of secondary sources as long as they are cited. I know a few who seem to implicitly allow this, but most students fear citing work as possibly indicting them as cheaters. I'd view this as a temporary solution until we figure out a better approach that maintains institutional academic integrity, encourages learning, and fairly evaluates performance.

TheCowboy 10y ago
I got downvoted and can't edit my response, but wanted to add that I'm not endorsing or advocating cheating, or trying to paint anyone as inherently dishonest. I just think the system will have to adapt to the new reality, and should acknowledge that this info is widely available.