5 ms·

Her medication doesn't change her biological makeup, science isn't that good yet. I'm happy to call anyone what they want, but surgery and drugs do not recreate

Her medication doesn't change her biological makeup, science isn't that good yet. I'm happy to call anyone what they want, but surgery and drugs do not recreate your sex.

abritinthebay 10y ago
Sex no, gender yes. That's the long and the short of it.
vertex-four 10y ago
There's plenty of evidence over the past couple of decades that trans people are, in a specific way, intersex - specifically that trans people's brains often have characteristics closer to those of their identified gender than what they were assigned at birth. There's certainly lots of anecdotal evidence that many people's brains just seem to "work better" once on the correct hormones, and generally speaking transition has very good outcomes - people who have transitioned are generally doing better on key indicators, though still not as well as cis people. The people behind the studies believe that this might be down to how prejudice and discrimination affects trans people even after transition, though there's no further studies in that direction yet. (For a comparison, I believe gay people were doing worse than the general population on the same key indicators before general acceptance, and it's been gradually getting better.) Here's a question, though: if we're not who we are in our own minds, who are we? Are you and I really only what others can see?
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  I'd like to see a source for this evidence please.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    I haven't gone over these properly, so I can't actually argue for their validity, but Wikipedia claims that there are numerous studies which seem to argue the same things - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain...
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      The first study they cite[0] has a sample size of 6, that is not nearly enough to account for the claims they are making. The same with the 2000 study[1]. The 2009 study[2] has 24 subjects so it's slightly more authoritative but points to an entirely different part of the brain as a marker for transgenderism, it's results have yet to be replicated. I'm failing to find 'plenty of evidence' here. What sources made you come to that conclusion yourself? [0] A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf [1] Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 [2] Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803
      - vertex-four 10y ago
        There is enough evidence for it to not be obviously false that, at the least, there's a significant structural difference between cis people's brains and transsexual people's brains, and some of those differences may fall along sexual differentiation lines. More research must be done! In any case, it's actually more-or-less irrelevant in arguing whether a trans person is actually the gender they identify as, and is mostly a curiosity until it leads to more focused treatment. The bit that does matter is the last question - am I who I am in my head, or am I who you think I am?
        cmdrfred 10y ago
        >There is enough evidence for it to not be obviously false that, at the least, there's a significant structural difference between cis people's brains and transsexual people's brains, and some of those differences may fall along sexual differentiation lines Source?
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something...
- Idontagree 10y ago
  Yes, you are what you see physically, are you actually going to tell me that you don't think you're made of thousands upon thousands of atoms. Am I denying that it's possible for technology to change us at a cellular level? No, of course not, I'm only saying that we havn't gotten to that point, yet. Trans people are still by their DNA male or female, unless there's been some breakthrough I'm unaware of, but I don't think it's happened.
ThrustVectoring 10y ago
Being a man or a woman is more than just your biological makeup. It makes a very significant difference in what behavior people expect from you and how they interpret what you do. In other words, there's very much a sense in which men are those who get seen and treated as men. And personally, I see no reason why having male genitals is necessary for getting seen and treated as a man. If you behave like you want to get seen and treated as a man, I'll see and treat you like a man. The only people who have a remote interest in the actual biological makeup underlying that behavior are people who are romantically involved or interested. Oh, and medical personnel.
- Idontagree 10y ago
  You're right, it's not your genitals, you could lop mine off, and I would still relate to you as a man. It is something much deeper within us, something we don't yet know how to change. Being gay or trans doesn't change that fundamental thing, it's a different approach, but it's still not different. You can put a trans-woman in front of me, and I promise you, I would relate to her as a man, on that intrinsic level which is so hard to define. (This is kind of a dumb point in a text based conversation, as I really have no proof, but I do think you (as are others) are ignoring my point. How we think is very much related to how we are made).
  - ltrcola 10y ago
    I seriously doubt that's true. Chances are high that you've already interacted with a trans person and not even known about it. The point people are making is that that fundamental thing that you can't change is actually biologically based, but it's a brain thing, not dependent on genitalia or chromosomes.

Her medication doesn't change her biological makeup, science isn't that good yet. I'm happy to call anyone what they want, but surgery and drugs do not recreate your sex.

abritinthebay 10y ago

Sex no, gender yes. That's the long and the short of it.

vertex-four 10y ago

There's plenty of evidence over the past couple of decades that trans people are, in a specific way, intersex - specifically that trans people's brains often have characteristics closer to those of their identified gender than what they were assigned at birth. There's certainly lots of anecdotal evidence that many people's brains just seem to "work better" once on the correct hormones, and generally speaking transition has very good outcomes - people who have transitioned are generally doing better on key indicators, though still not as well as cis people. The people behind the studies believe that this might be down to how prejudice and discrimination affects trans people even after transition, though there's no further studies in that direction yet. (For a comparison, I believe gay people were doing worse than the general population on the same key indicators before general acceptance, and it's been gradually getting better.) Here's a question, though: if we're not who we are in our own minds, who are we? Are you and I really only what others can see?

cmdrfred 10y ago
I'd like to see a source for this evidence please.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  I haven't gone over these properly, so I can't actually argue for their validity, but Wikipedia claims that there are numerous studies which seem to argue the same things - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain...
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    The first study they cite[0] has a sample size of 6, that is not nearly enough to account for the claims they are making. The same with the 2000 study[1]. The 2009 study[2] has 24 subjects so it's slightly more authoritative but points to an entirely different part of the brain as a marker for transgenderism, it's results have yet to be replicated. I'm failing to find 'plenty of evidence' here. What sources made you come to that conclusion yourself? [0] A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/sex/TRANSGENDER.pdf [1] Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564 [2] Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803
    - vertex-four 10y ago
      There is enough evidence for it to not be obviously false that, at the least, there's a significant structural difference between cis people's brains and transsexual people's brains, and some of those differences may fall along sexual differentiation lines. More research must be done! In any case, it's actually more-or-less irrelevant in arguing whether a trans person is actually the gender they identify as, and is mostly a curiosity until it leads to more focused treatment. The bit that does matter is the last question - am I who I am in my head, or am I who you think I am?
      - cmdrfred 10y ago
        >There is enough evidence for it to not be obviously false that, at the least, there's a significant structural difference between cis people's brains and transsexual people's brains, and some of those differences may fall along sexual differentiation lines Source?
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something...
Idontagree 10y ago
Yes, you are what you see physically, are you actually going to tell me that you don't think you're made of thousands upon thousands of atoms. Am I denying that it's possible for technology to change us at a cellular level? No, of course not, I'm only saying that we havn't gotten to that point, yet. Trans people are still by their DNA male or female, unless there's been some breakthrough I'm unaware of, but I don't think it's happened.

ThrustVectoring 10y ago

Being a man or a woman is more than just your biological makeup. It makes a very significant difference in what behavior people expect from you and how they interpret what you do. In other words, there's very much a sense in which men are those who get seen and treated as men. And personally, I see no reason why having male genitals is necessary for getting seen and treated as a man. If you behave like you want to get seen and treated as a man, I'll see and treat you like a man. The only people who have a remote interest in the actual biological makeup underlying that behavior are people who are romantically involved or interested. Oh, and medical personnel.

Idontagree 10y ago
You're right, it's not your genitals, you could lop mine off, and I would still relate to you as a man. It is something much deeper within us, something we don't yet know how to change. Being gay or trans doesn't change that fundamental thing, it's a different approach, but it's still not different. You can put a trans-woman in front of me, and I promise you, I would relate to her as a man, on that intrinsic level which is so hard to define. (This is kind of a dumb point in a text based conversation, as I really have no proof, but I do think you (as are others) are ignoring my point. How we think is very much related to how we are made).
- ltrcola 10y ago
  I seriously doubt that's true. Chances are high that you've already interacted with a trans person and not even known about it. The point people are making is that that fundamental thing that you can't change is actually biologically based, but it's a brain thing, not dependent on genitalia or chromosomes.