39 ms·

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were ext

by mrep 10y ago

I went to a public university with a large international population and this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. A lot of the international students were extremely poor at english. One of the guys on my software project team was an international student who confirmed that it was very easy to pay someone to take the english proficiency exam. Us Americans aren't so innocent though. The amount of adderall/vyvanse/ritalin... that goes through college campuses is ridiculous. Honestly, I feel that it's just a symptom of extreme competition. With colleges and first time jobs taking such extreme care to filter on GPA and the likes, every little bit usually pays off.

darawk 10y ago
To be fair, there is a difference between adderall and actual cheating. One of these is a thing that helps you do your own work better, and the other is hiring someone else to do your work for you. One of these things is fraudulent, and the other is simply performance enhancement. Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question, whereas cheating your way through tests does.
- mrep 10y ago
  100% agree with you and that's why I said "Us Americans aren't so innocent", not "we're just as guilty" (Albeit, there are a lot of us who cheat also).
- whatshisface 10y ago
  >"Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question" What happens when you stop taking it? We frown upon doping in school for the same reason we frown upon it in sports. It creates an environment where people are forced to deal with the side effects to compete, or receive a lower grade. Employers will expect that you continue your performance outside of school. If you stop doping after school, your employer will notice the new correlation between GPA and performance - hurting those with legitimate work ethic and skill. If you don't stop doping, you will start to experience some serious health issues. (Even if employers don't think that GPA matters, so long as any significant number hire based on it the zero-sum fault will persist.)
  - vibrato 10y ago
    what correlation between GPA and performance? Has one ever been found? Google has not found one. http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-...
    - tdaltonc 10y ago
      > Even for new grads, the correlation is slight, the company has found. Small_correlation != no_correlation
  - ohyes 10y ago
    Doubt the employer would notice it, being that GPA and performance are not necessarily correlated. Doping in any situation gives an edge at the upper levels, but won't make an average person superhuman. (It makes superhumans even more superhuman). We frown on doping because it's dangerous due to bad health effects. Forcing someone to use performance enhancers to compete and damage their health is the ethical problem in my mind. Collateral harm.
  - rtpg 10y ago
    Plus, since Adderall and the like are in limited supply, you're preventing people who actually need it to function from getting the access they need.
    - douche 10y ago
      It's absurdly easy to get diagnosed with ADHD/ADD and get an Adderall or equivalent prescription. I don't think the pharmaceutical companies have any qualms about producing more supply, if there is demand for it.
      - marshray 10y ago
        No, production is limited by the US Drug Enforcement Agency: http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670035.pdf http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670035.pdf "As part of its work to prevent diversion of controlled substances, DEA sets limits, known as quotas, on the amount of certain classes of controlled substances available for use in the United States"
- Terr_ 10y ago
  > Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question 1. Is exam-cram really the same as knowledge? 2. Test performance can often a zero-sum game, when curved. So dopers may have better performance, but they are indirectly harming all the honest kids. 3. Is it desirable to tie better-performance to having money/connections and weak ethics? (Whether similar to full-time work or not.)
tdeck 10y ago
These types of discussions always depress me. You'd think from reading them that everyone has cheated or popped some Adderall at some point, and it's a normal part of college. Is that really true? I never have, unless you count making up excuses for turning in the occasional thing late. I worked hard in school and got decent but not amazing grades (3.7 something). When I hear this shit it makes me feel like I was playing the game handicapped all along. Either that or the cheaters among is are always looking for ways to rationalize it by making it seem more normative.
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  I think it is essentially true. I recently graduated and definitely 99.9 pct of students cheated/took adderral at some point in their studies.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Cheaters definitely rationalize. I myself never had anyone else sit exams for me, nor used anyone else's work as my own, nor copied homework answers. I think cheating is common but there are definitely people who don't do it. You just don't hear much about them.
- Steuard 10y ago
  In my experience, a lot of the cheaters do, in fact, believe (or want to believe) that just about everyone else is doing it too. Don't buy it. I wasn't aware of anyone in my circle of friends or even friendly acquaintances who cheated in college or grad school. (I heard about occasional incidents involving people I didn't know. But if there was an active cheating subculture, nobody talked about it when I was in earshot.) And my experience as a professor is that there are an awful lot of students who I work with one on one and whose homework and exam grades are right in line with my firsthand experience of their work.
- edc117 10y ago
  I didn't either, and don't believe I knew anyone that did (grad and undergrad CS, knew 2-3 other students who likely did not). Anecdotal data point, but there it is.
- 10y ago
cs2818 10y ago
Stimulants (of any kind) don't complete your work for you, at best they provide a little extra capacity and focus.
venomsnake 10y ago
Where I live the modus operandi is amphetamines 48 hours before exam with aspirin. Study without sleeping. Take exam. Sleep. Forget everything. At least the kids don't do it for important professions - the ones I knew did it were mostly medical students and civil engineers /s.

by mrep 10y ago

darawk 10y ago

To be fair, there is a difference between adderall and actual cheating. One of these is a thing that helps you do your own work better, and the other is hiring someone else to do your work for you. One of these things is fraudulent, and the other is simply performance enhancement. Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question, whereas cheating your way through tests does.

mrep 10y ago
100% agree with you and that's why I said "Us Americans aren't so innocent", not "we're just as guilty" (Albeit, there are a lot of us who cheat also).
whatshisface 10y ago
>"Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question" What happens when you stop taking it? We frown upon doping in school for the same reason we frown upon it in sports. It creates an environment where people are forced to deal with the side effects to compete, or receive a lower grade. Employers will expect that you continue your performance outside of school. If you stop doping after school, your employer will notice the new correlation between GPA and performance - hurting those with legitimate work ethic and skill. If you don't stop doping, you will start to experience some serious health issues. (Even if employers don't think that GPA matters, so long as any significant number hire based on it the zero-sum fault will persist.)
- vibrato 10y ago
  what correlation between GPA and performance? Has one ever been found? Google has not found one. http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-...
  - tdaltonc 10y ago
    > Even for new grads, the correlation is slight, the company has found. Small_correlation != no_correlation
- ohyes 10y ago
  Doubt the employer would notice it, being that GPA and performance are not necessarily correlated. Doping in any situation gives an edge at the upper levels, but won't make an average person superhuman. (It makes superhumans even more superhuman). We frown on doping because it's dangerous due to bad health effects. Forcing someone to use performance enhancers to compete and damage their health is the ethical problem in my mind. Collateral harm.
- rtpg 10y ago
  Plus, since Adderall and the like are in limited supply, you're preventing people who actually need it to function from getting the access they need.
  - douche 10y ago
    It's absurdly easy to get diagnosed with ADHD/ADD and get an Adderall or equivalent prescription. I don't think the pharmaceutical companies have any qualms about producing more supply, if there is demand for it.
    - marshray 10y ago
      No, production is limited by the US Drug Enforcement Agency: http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670035.pdf http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670035.pdf "As part of its work to prevent diversion of controlled substances, DEA sets limits, known as quotas, on the amount of certain classes of controlled substances available for use in the United States"
Terr_ 10y ago
> Taking Adderall to study doesn't make you less competent at the subject in question 1. Is exam-cram really the same as knowledge? 2. Test performance can often a zero-sum game, when curved. So dopers may have better performance, but they are indirectly harming all the honest kids. 3. Is it desirable to tie better-performance to having money/connections and weak ethics? (Whether similar to full-time work or not.)

tdeck 10y ago

These types of discussions always depress me. You'd think from reading them that everyone has cheated or popped some Adderall at some point, and it's a normal part of college. Is that really true? I never have, unless you count making up excuses for turning in the occasional thing late. I worked hard in school and got decent but not amazing grades (3.7 something). When I hear this shit it makes me feel like I was playing the game handicapped all along. Either that or the cheaters among is are always looking for ways to rationalize it by making it seem more normative.

thesimpsons1022 10y ago
I think it is essentially true. I recently graduated and definitely 99.9 pct of students cheated/took adderral at some point in their studies.
ams6110 10y ago
Cheaters definitely rationalize. I myself never had anyone else sit exams for me, nor used anyone else's work as my own, nor copied homework answers. I think cheating is common but there are definitely people who don't do it. You just don't hear much about them.
Steuard 10y ago
In my experience, a lot of the cheaters do, in fact, believe (or want to believe) that just about everyone else is doing it too. Don't buy it. I wasn't aware of anyone in my circle of friends or even friendly acquaintances who cheated in college or grad school. (I heard about occasional incidents involving people I didn't know. But if there was an active cheating subculture, nobody talked about it when I was in earshot.) And my experience as a professor is that there are an awful lot of students who I work with one on one and whose homework and exam grades are right in line with my firsthand experience of their work.
edc117 10y ago
I didn't either, and don't believe I knew anyone that did (grad and undergrad CS, knew 2-3 other students who likely did not). Anecdotal data point, but there it is.
10y ago

cs2818 10y ago

Stimulants (of any kind) don't complete your work for you, at best they provide a little extra capacity and focus.

venomsnake 10y ago

Where I live the modus operandi is amphetamines 48 hours before exam with aspirin. Study without sleeping. Take exam. Sleep. Forget everything. At least the kids don't do it for important professions - the ones I knew did it were mostly medical students and civil engineers /s.