6 ms·

Cheating is and always should be a pox that needs to be eradicated. But let's not turn a blind eye to what's happening here locally. Parents in the 1% spend an

by whack 10y ago

Cheating is and always should be a pox that needs to be eradicated. But let's not turn a blind eye to what's happening here locally. Parents in the 1% spend an extraordinary amount of money and resources on college-prep companies, many of which tell the kids exactly what extracurriculars to take, what to do after school, and virtually write the entire outline of their admissions essays. It's little wonder that schools like Harvard are playgrounds for the ultra-elite.

SilasX 10y ago
Wait, what? You don't see the difference between "here's what you should study to pass the test" vs "here is the answer for that specific question"?
- kyebosh 10y ago
  Careful with the strawmen; it was never stated that there is no difference. The point I read was that unfair advantage should be discouraged in all forms, no matter how insidious or subtle. I think it's a very valid point: You don't need to be a moral absolutist, but it's only fair to keep an eye on the nuanced avenues of unfair advantage as well as the explicit ones.
  - SilasX 10y ago
    If someone has a subtle point they want to make, they should make it explicit and as obvious as possible. The principle of charity doesn't require me to invent arguments for them. If someone doesn't say what they think the difference is [1], and they ask me to apply all the implications about one to the other, it's not a strawman to say they are equating the two. [1] between "doing Y would help improve your score" vs "the answer is X"
TelAviv_1 10y ago
Huh? How did you get from cheating at a mid-western school to bashing the "1%" at Harvard? All you need are the Koch Brothers and you could post this on the Daily Kos!
sytelus 10y ago
That's way different than these companies producing fake transcripts and even taking exams on behalf of students. Everyone has right to do college-prep as much as they like and everyone would get help in essays from friends, parents and professionals. But flat out lying, making up your grades and having someone else take exams for you is whole different ball game.
benten10 10y ago
YES! And I don't want to piss of the uhh, bros among us, but it was extremely unfair as an international student to see mediocre fraternity brothers party through the semester, and then using their 'frat-connections' (basically the DL on all the old questions sets, collected over decades, and detailed coaching by fellow brothers on likely questions and answers) due exceedingly well in the exams, and then use their frat connections to land exceedingly awesome jobs. Blame the Chinese all you want, it hurts because they're the 'other'. (/rant. Sorry. Makes me really mad. I WORKED HARD TO LEARN AND ENJOYED CLASSES.) Funnily enough, I did exceedingly well in those exams that were open book (instructors knew the 'sharing of past papers happened, so they changed questions types) to which I didn't any scrap of paper. /humblebrag. But yeah, the system is unfair as it is. Having said that, dear Americans, as broken as things are (despite those gosh darned 'cheatin' Chinese', as Trump would say), the system is better than anywhere else. Thanks for that : )
- sotojuan 10y ago
  > and then use their frat connections to land exceedingly awesome jobs That happens everywhere though. It's not endemic to "frat bros"—a lot of people find jobs through connections rather than only grades. Most of the time it's through a family friend or family member, or in CS through open source or meet ups. It sucks when you don't have any connections but it's not unfair; it's just how it is. Should I not tell an undergrad friend that my company is hiring interns and recommend her? Of course an international student will have less connections which is why they sometimes struggle getting internships. But yeah, the cheating stuff is messed up!
  - twshoopboop 10y ago
    "it's not unfair; it's just how it is" It kind of is unfair. Why should someone get preferential treatment just because you happen to know them? Also there's a difference between recommending someone for a job and "Hey this is my buddy, don't look at her resume and we can also skip most of the interview process". There's different degrees of nepotism, they are all usually a bit 'unfair'. But then, life is unfair and so you just deal with it and do the best with whatever resources you have.
Spooky23 10y ago
Give me a break. I went to a big state school that wasn't a playground for the elite, but you'd see these Chinese students who could barely speak enough English to order a pizza demonstrating supposed mastery of written English in core classes. The "ABC" Chinese students who were pissed off about the blatant cheating, reported one group of foreign students were openly sharing answers during the test in Mandarin. The ethics committee's investigation was "undetermined" and no action was taken. The reasoning is pretty clear -- foreign students pay more and pay in cash.
- knn 10y ago
  Interestingly, I go to a big state school that is somewhat a playground for the international Chinese elite. It's very common to see chinese international students driving $80,000+ cars and many of those same students cheating in classes. In a grad stat/software engineering class I took, most of them shared the same code for the assignments (in front of the professor). I hate to generalize because some of them are honest, but cheating is a terrible part of the subculture
  - otoburb 10y ago
    >>most of them shared the same code for the assignments (in front of the professor). [...] cheating is a terrible part of the subculture Which is terrible - your particular university's subculture of cheating-condoning professors, or a Chinese student subculture of cheating?
    - sotojuan 10y ago
      Chinese international subculture of cheating, I assume.
      - otoburb 10y ago
        I assumed that too, but the additional implication I'm reading into the parent comment is that the professor might be in on it too.
  - 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
stvswn 10y ago
Are you arguing that "rich kids tend to have more resources" is justification for cheating, or is it the case that you reflexively comment on articles that don't explicitly criticize the "1%" with a non-sequitur about what you wish the article had been about?
rhizome 10y ago
That is what's known as a Category Error.

by whack 10y ago

SilasX 10y ago

Wait, what? You don't see the difference between "here's what you should study to pass the test" vs "here is the answer for that specific question"?

kyebosh 10y ago
Careful with the strawmen; it was never stated that there is no difference. The point I read was that unfair advantage should be discouraged in all forms, no matter how insidious or subtle. I think it's a very valid point: You don't need to be a moral absolutist, but it's only fair to keep an eye on the nuanced avenues of unfair advantage as well as the explicit ones.
- SilasX 10y ago
  If someone has a subtle point they want to make, they should make it explicit and as obvious as possible. The principle of charity doesn't require me to invent arguments for them. If someone doesn't say what they think the difference is [1], and they ask me to apply all the implications about one to the other, it's not a strawman to say they are equating the two. [1] between "doing Y would help improve your score" vs "the answer is X"

TelAviv_1 10y ago

Huh? How did you get from cheating at a mid-western school to bashing the "1%" at Harvard? All you need are the Koch Brothers and you could post this on the Daily Kos!

sytelus 10y ago

That's way different than these companies producing fake transcripts and even taking exams on behalf of students. Everyone has right to do college-prep as much as they like and everyone would get help in essays from friends, parents and professionals. But flat out lying, making up your grades and having someone else take exams for you is whole different ball game.

benten10 10y ago

YES! And I don't want to piss of the uhh, bros among us, but it was extremely unfair as an international student to see mediocre fraternity brothers party through the semester, and then using their 'frat-connections' (basically the DL on all the old questions sets, collected over decades, and detailed coaching by fellow brothers on likely questions and answers) due exceedingly well in the exams, and then use their frat connections to land exceedingly awesome jobs. Blame the Chinese all you want, it hurts because they're the 'other'. (/rant. Sorry. Makes me really mad. I WORKED HARD TO LEARN AND ENJOYED CLASSES.) Funnily enough, I did exceedingly well in those exams that were open book (instructors knew the 'sharing of past papers happened, so they changed questions types) to which I didn't any scrap of paper. /humblebrag. But yeah, the system is unfair as it is. Having said that, dear Americans, as broken as things are (despite those gosh darned 'cheatin' Chinese', as Trump would say), the system is better than anywhere else. Thanks for that : )

sotojuan 10y ago
> and then use their frat connections to land exceedingly awesome jobs That happens everywhere though. It's not endemic to "frat bros"—a lot of people find jobs through connections rather than only grades. Most of the time it's through a family friend or family member, or in CS through open source or meet ups. It sucks when you don't have any connections but it's not unfair; it's just how it is. Should I not tell an undergrad friend that my company is hiring interns and recommend her? Of course an international student will have less connections which is why they sometimes struggle getting internships. But yeah, the cheating stuff is messed up!
- twshoopboop 10y ago
  "it's not unfair; it's just how it is" It kind of is unfair. Why should someone get preferential treatment just because you happen to know them? Also there's a difference between recommending someone for a job and "Hey this is my buddy, don't look at her resume and we can also skip most of the interview process". There's different degrees of nepotism, they are all usually a bit 'unfair'. But then, life is unfair and so you just deal with it and do the best with whatever resources you have.

Spooky23 10y ago

Give me a break. I went to a big state school that wasn't a playground for the elite, but you'd see these Chinese students who could barely speak enough English to order a pizza demonstrating supposed mastery of written English in core classes. The "ABC" Chinese students who were pissed off about the blatant cheating, reported one group of foreign students were openly sharing answers during the test in Mandarin. The ethics committee's investigation was "undetermined" and no action was taken. The reasoning is pretty clear -- foreign students pay more and pay in cash.

knn 10y ago
Interestingly, I go to a big state school that is somewhat a playground for the international Chinese elite. It's very common to see chinese international students driving $80,000+ cars and many of those same students cheating in classes. In a grad stat/software engineering class I took, most of them shared the same code for the assignments (in front of the professor). I hate to generalize because some of them are honest, but cheating is a terrible part of the subculture
- otoburb 10y ago
  >>most of them shared the same code for the assignments (in front of the professor). [...] cheating is a terrible part of the subculture Which is terrible - your particular university's subculture of cheating-condoning professors, or a Chinese student subculture of cheating?
  - sotojuan 10y ago
    Chinese international subculture of cheating, I assume.
    - otoburb 10y ago
      I assumed that too, but the additional implication I'm reading into the parent comment is that the professor might be in on it too.
- 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

stvswn 10y ago

Are you arguing that "rich kids tend to have more resources" is justification for cheating, or is it the case that you reflexively comment on articles that don't explicitly criticize the "1%" with a non-sequitur about what you wish the article had been about?

rhizome 10y ago

That is what's known as a Category Error.