10 ms·

Is a prenup a good idea?

67 points by finangle 10y ago

jstanley 10y ago
> Daniel wanted to have a prenup, but Susan fought tooth and nail to keep it out of their marriage. Is this not a huge red flag about Susan's intentions?
- partisan 10y ago
  Or about Daniel's intentions? This is an ugly topic that you simply can't extract a solution for by applying cold logic. It involves, emotions, expectations, realities, possibilities, all wrapped up into one document that spells out what will happen if and when your marriage meets it's bitter demise. Read all you want on whether it is right or wrong and postulate as much as you want about it, but when it comes down to it and it's your turn to decide whether you are hedging for or against the success of your marriage, it will be a deeply personal decision that no one will have any right to make calls on.
  - wk_end 10y ago
    Assuming that it were a red flag about Daniel's intentions, what would Daniel's intentions be?
    - keyanp 10y ago
      edit
      - pc86 10y ago
        > They could, for example, be to leave Susan within a relatively short amount of time in order to marry someone younger. And should he do that, it's hard to argue with a straight face that she deserves half of everything. > Or to prevent Susan from having an obvious recourse in the event that Daniel commits adultery. How often to prenups give the cheating party a free pass?
        dragonwriter 10y ago
        > How often to prenups give the cheating party a free pass? In some states, notably including California, infidelity clauses have been held to be unenforceable provisions in prenuptial agreements, as contrary to public policy (specifically, in CA, that policy as expressed in no-fault divorce laws.) So, if the agreement purports to create penalties for cheating that vary what the distribution of assets would be without it, that provision may not have any legal effect.
    - partisan 10y ago
      To marry and leave without the typical financial penalties. It's no more or less likely than her intentions being bad.
      - hasenj 10y ago
        Penalties for what?
      - wk_end 10y ago
        Why would those be Daniel's intentions though? What does he have to gain by doing that? Susan obviously has a tremendous to gain by doing that sans prenup, which is precisely why people perceive her reluctance to get one as a red flag, but unless I'm missing something, Daniel wouldn't really gain anything by doing that except a whole bunch of legal fees. If he wanted to leave her, why marry her?
  - hasenj 10y ago
    His intentions to protect his assets from unfair laws? How is that a bad intention?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ajoy39 10y ago
  depends on what's in the prenup and who is making what. Maybe the prenup says they spit everything 50-50 and Susan makes more/has a nicer house. Or maybe she's going in to a more lucrative career field. Or, maybe she's just offended at the notion that her future husband is already planning an exit strategy (that last part is mostly my own feelings about prenups coming through)
- Dirlewanger 10y ago
  Yup. Why else would she fight it? It's in her best interest for there not to be one if shit hits the fan, plain and simple. Hopefully people here will be more levelheaded than other online communities when it comes to gender relations and realize how not having a prenup is insane, and additionally, how absolutely fucked family law is not only in California, but pretty much the entire country.
  - dionidium 10y ago
    Hopefully people here will be more levelheaded than other online communities I wouldn't count on it. We're talking about hedging on trust in a relationship whose primary component is trust. That is a blueprint for an emotional response. (And why shouldn't it be?)
- praxulus 10y ago
  No. In our culture a prenup is a sign of distrust, or that you don't expect a marriage to succeed. Rational or not, people who have no gold-digging intentions can still be extremely opposed to prenups.
  - irrational 10y ago
    But in our culture isn't it also assumed that the marriage will end someday? I once overheard the mother of the groom saying how much she loved her new daughter-in-law and thought that she would make a great first-wife for her son!
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      No, I don't think that is assumed by most people getting married.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > But in our culture isn't it also assumed that the marriage will end someday? Not in my culture, I don't know about yours. > I once overheard the mother of the groom saying how much she loved her new daughter-in-law and thought that she would make a great first-wife for her son! "I once overheard..." is a fairly thin reed to hang an inference of broad cultural expectation on.
    - askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
      Generally, people assume that a plurality of marriages that aren't theirs will end. Their marriage, of course, isn't like those. We humans are really bad at seeing our biases.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > Generally, people assume that a plurality of marriages that aren't theirs will end. A plurality is the largest individual share where there is no majority. Since marriages have only two outcomes (end by death, end by divorce), there is no room for a plurality, only a majority one way or the other. I don't think people falsely assume other outcomes which reduce the biggest share to a mere plurality. And there is precious little evidence to support that the biggest share (majority or plurality) is to end in divorce.
- steve-benjamins 10y ago
  Nah. It's entirely possible that Susan's intentions are benevolent here. Being able to trust that both of you are committed is critical to making a marriage work. While it's possible to trust each other's commitment and have a prenup, in practice it's not that simple. Relationship's have a delicate equilibrium of trust that needs to be maintained— a prenup does make this more complex. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just think being hesitant about a prenup is entirely sensible position.
- dionidium 10y ago
  The whole point of marriage is to make an unmake-able promise. If you're going to start hedging before you even say the words, then what's the point?
  - armitron 10y ago
    This your (naive and/or totally fucked up) idea of marriage, certainly not what marriage is for the vast majority (i dare say) of the population.
    - dionidium 10y ago
      Nah, I think you've got this backwards. You're the oddball with the practical outlook on the institution. I'm actually less conveying my own feelings on marriage than I am describing how everyone around me seems to regard it.
    - zeveb 10y ago
      What is marriage for the vast majority of the population? It's certainly no longer about sex (and less and less about sexual exclusivity). It's not really about children. It's not an economic union. It's certainly not lifelong. So far as I can tell it's about a big party, and having the rest of society validate one's current relationship. It's not at all clear why we still have a great deal of permanence-presuming civil law covering what's now clearly become a private, temporary matter. What's the point?
      - armitron 10y ago
        It's a partnership that works on multiple levels. Not some disney fairy tale about unmake-able promises.
        dionidium 10y ago
        Have you been to a wedding recently? Those vows aren't about practical concerns. They're about eternal love, as long as we both shall live, to have and to hold. You're free to layer whatever you want over top of that promise. But what you explicitly agree to with literal vows is all about the love, man.
- rbcgerard 10y ago
  its really hard to say without understanding the prenup
kefka 10y ago
I get it if there were children from a previous relationship. Sometimes step- relations can (and do) go sour, and that could guarantee that your children get a fair share. Aside that, wanting one shows to me that you're not wanting to be a partner. Instead, you want special dispensation as a 'separate-class' in the marriage. Just no, no, no.
- askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
  It could also indicate that one's personal values do not include a complete melding of finances to be a partner. It's acceptable in a business arrangement to be partners with unequal stakes. In my opinion, it's useful to separate the love/trust/bonding from marriage. Marriage is a civil contract that says very little about the relationship.
- hasenj 10y ago
  > Aside that, wanting one shows to me that you're not wanting to be a partner. No, it shows that you are rational about who owns what assets.
erispoe 10y ago
IANAL, but it depends on the situation. A prenup is a way to protect your spouse's and your respective assets by having a wall in between them. You design the wall. So, let's say, if you do something risky and creditors can come after you, at least your spouse's assets are protected. Often though, creditors will seek collaterals with your spouse as well, but at least it has to be explicit and on a case-by-case basis. However, the US being a common law country, it's up to the judge to determine how enforceable they are. Apparently, judges are much less likely to enforce them in former spanish/mexican catholic states in the South-West than they are elsewhere in the country. So a prenup in California might be less useful than in New-York. Lastly, a prenup does not say anything about how much you love your spouse. If you love him/her, you should plan for his/her safety if you engage in activities risking your own assets. Going down together for the sake of it is not a wise display of marital love. Again, talk to your lawyer.
colmvp 10y ago
> In case you are curious, Daniel and Susan ended up not having a prenup. Daniel wanted to have a prenup, but Susan fought tooth and nail to keep it out of their marriage. Daniel is now at peace with the fact that he has to share whatever he makes during the marriage with Susan, knowing that the money he brought into the marriage will always be only his. Dear readers, do you think Daniel and Susan should have had a prenup? Huh, how surprising that the person with significantly less income and assets fought hard to prevent a prenup.
- danvoell 10y ago
  "share whatever he makes during the marriage with Susan" - my understanding is that you need to share not just what you make during marriage but also the assets you had before.
  - DamnYuppie 10y ago
    That depends on the state. Most it is seen as separate unless you "co-mingle" them with shared assets, say invest in a business or home together.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    That depends on the jurisdiction -- and, mostly, that's the jurisdiction in which any hypothetical future divorce will occur. In California, pre-marriage assets are separate property, as well as certain things received during marriage (gifts, bequests, etc., as well as earnings such as rents derived from other separate property.) (California Family Code, Sec. 770.) Other things gained during the marriage are generally community (or, if gained outside of California, quasi-community, which is treated the same in a divorce) property.
  - JoblessWonder 10y ago
    They cover this in the post but it depends on the state. Here is a snippet: > "Income generated from community property will remain community property, and income generated from separate property will remain separate property. So any investment income earned from Daniel’s savings before the marriage, or gifts or inheritances he receives during the marriage, will remain his separate property, while investment income generated from Daniel’s savings during the marriage will be community property."
dominotw 10y ago
most prenups are not usually honored in american courts. You have to go to great lengths to make sure prenup is airtight.
- chaverma 10y ago
  Or, you could not get married.
  - finangle 10y ago
    Indeed! There are also people who choose to not get married because of tax reasons. I will write another article on the tax benefits and tax disadvantages on getting married. Stay tuned!
  - Spivak 10y ago
    And commonlaw marriage states completely ruin that plan in some cases.
    - emodendroket 10y ago
      There are like three states that have common-law marriage and it's not that easy to end up in one.
- sna1l 10y ago
  https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=6782 https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=6782 -- here is the language around why a California prenup wouldn't be enforceable
- finangle 10y ago
  You are right that some prenups are not enforced, for example, if one spouse can show that there is not a full disclosure of the other spouse's assets in the prenup, she was not represented by an attorney in signing the prenup, or she was not given enough time to review the prenup before signing it.
googletazer 10y ago
If your spouse has the same amount of assets, and in foreseable future will continue earning about the same as you - maybe not. If the spouse has less or more seems like a no brainer, why would you want to give her money she hasn't earned or take money you haven't earned in case of a divorce? So in 99% of cases - hell yeah.
- labster 10y ago
  Because love is more important than money?
  - googletazer 10y ago
    Where does "love" and "I need the courts to give me the fruits of your labor connect"?
- sokoloff 10y ago
  My wife and I came into the relationship with wildly different assets and incomes (both never-married, no prior kids, late 30s). I wouldn't have considered a pre-nup for the simple reason that I'm wagering we'll be together for the duration and if not, I'm willing to share our familial resources amongst the 4 of us. We're together 10+ years now, two kids in elementary school, wife left a nearly 6-figure science job to stay home and raise the kids. Everyone seems happy with that arrangement. What I brought into the relationship 10-11 years ago has less bearing on our current financial standing than the support and promotions I've earned since and the investments we've made, most of which are made on paper with "my" money and "my" direction, but are nevertheless "ours" in every sense that matters to me/us. I've seen relationships that my friends have entered though, where my first thought was, "Boy, I hope they have a pre-nup..."
  - googletazer 10y ago
    You and your wife fell on the side of the bell curve where its two reasonable people who see their assets as joint. I guess both of you have high risk tolerance as well. Vast majority of people I personally know do not see their assets in the same way.
LifeQuestioner 10y ago
If I marry a millionaire, and I earn 50k a year, I'd still want a prenup. What you earnt before has fuck all to do with me. Am I the only one who doesn't take this personally? Would you personally sign one if your spouse earned more?
- nileshtrivedi 10y ago
  Did you marry a millionaire while earning only 50K a year? What people say they will do and what they actually do can vary wildly.
  - LifeQuestioner 10y ago
    And I'm sure you have enough evidence to make a judgment of a randomer over the Internet.
  - LifeQuestioner 10y ago
    And very limited thinking sigh HN sigh
rekwah 10y ago
I'm curious if this is easier to handle with non-liquid assets? Imagine he has a $100k fishing boat instead of $100k stuffed in a mattress. Is the spouse more willing to sign a prenup if it's easier to make the mental separation between "mine" and "theirs" when it's a physical asset?
- finangle 10y ago
  If you have illiquid assets, I think it is more important for you to have a prenup. Say if you have a one million dollar house and run a business that is also worth one million, you might want to give your spouse the house and keep the business for yourself in the prenup. After all, you do not want your spouse who knows nothing about your business to have 50% interest in it. And it saves the headache of having to sell the house and split the proceeds in a divorce.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
this2shallpaas 10y ago
It doesn't surprise me if the person who has less income and fewer assets wouldn't want a prenup. Or people who believe it shows a lack of full commitment, a wrinkle in their Medieval/Disney love story. Prenups seem like a good idea for the partner with more assets, which is more often than not a male. Women are much more likely to initiate divorce. "In a survey of 2,262 adults in heterosexual partnerships over the course of five years, Rosenfeld found that women initiate divorces 69 percent of the time. On the whole, they also reported less satisfaction with their marriages than men." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/08/27/why-women-are-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/08/27/wh...
- emodendroket 10y ago
  Well, one could easily say, by the same token, that "it doesn't surprise me that the person with more assets would want a prenup." I'm not sure why one person asserting their interests here is greed but the other person doing the same is prudence.
  - this2shallpaas 10y ago
    Neither is (necessarily) greed- the motivation is probably benign, at least in many cases. But one is very likely prudence.
- rbcgerard 10y ago
  its not always the case, take the case where someone with relatively little assets but bright career prospects(say a new lawyer at big firm)marries a girl with rich parents, but no job, the the "rich" girl's essentially broke - is hypothetically worth a lot, in this case all of the "poorer" spouses's earnings would be treated as community property despite the other spouse bein far richer and not contributing much to community property
gamache 10y ago
Is a prenup a good idea? Let's examine a well-connected, basement-dwelling money hoarder in his quest to get a regular poor to Touch His Dick. Oh, what do you know, he caved to her demands!
- dang 10y ago
  Comments like this are a bannable offense on HN. Your comment history looks good otherwise, so we won't ban you for this one, but please don't post anything like it again. The threads here are for civil, substantive discussion.
carsongross 10y ago
In today's world? Absolutely. Divorce is the expected outcome of marriage now, and the man will get nuked in family court. If you have any significant assets you would be foolish not to protect them.
- hebleb 10y ago
  Who says divorce is the expected outcome of marriage? What's the point of getting married if that's the person's mindset?
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    Call me cynical, but I feel like the people who write such comments don't really have to worry about it too much.
  - gnaritas 10y ago
    > Who says divorce is the expected outcome of marriage? Statistics. What's more likely, divorce or marriage until death?
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > > Who says divorce is the expected outcome of marriage? > Statistics. [citation needed] > What's more likely, divorce or marriage until death? Probably, the latter. The popular "half of all marriages will end in divorce" was from near the peak in the particular methodology it used, and was based on projecting the then-past trend and making an estimate of lifetime probabilities for new marriages based on that trend extending out into the future, and even then it was a result of second and subsequent marriages having significantly higher divorce rates than earlier marriages, with first marriages, even in the projection, being substantially below 50% probability of ending in divorce. But its actually really hard to get a good idea of what is more likely when you don't have a way of actually sampling the space of interest (which would take reaching into the future), and various methodologies of estimating divorce risk (and even whether the rate at which marriages end in divorce is really rising or falling) come to different answers.
peterjancelis 10y ago
Timely post as just today I got engaged to my girlfriend. We will definitely go for a prenup, I want to avoid a 15 year long divorce battle like my parents had at all possible costs. I have created a subreddit for people interested in discussing prenups: https://www.reddit.com/r/prenup https://www.reddit.com/r/prenup
- GFischer 10y ago
  Interestingly enough, in my anecdotal evidence, couples who have a prenup don't divorce :) Maybe the mere fact of having enough trust to do a prenup marks a more mature marriage, more likely to succeed in the longer term?
  - peterjancelis 10y ago
    Hope so! My fiancee is definitely super mature, only 24 years old but had to support her family (while studying) after her father died at 17 years old. She's completely onboard with us deciding what is fair in what scenario rather than outsourcing it to some parliament and court system somewhere.
- throwawayprenup 10y ago
  Congrats! Has the subject of a prenup come up before? If not, don't assume that conversation will go smoothly...
  - peterjancelis 10y ago
    It's a required condition for me. She knows and has known for a long time.
throw7 10y ago
So I'm guessing Susan wasn't a "babe".
Kinnard 10y ago
In lieu of a prenup, perhaps a Ketubah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketubah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketubah
chollida1 10y ago
One instance where I see alot of people sign prenup is in the case where one person is a partner in a business, whether it be a lawyer, doctor, hedge fund, etc. In these situations its usually the firm that wants the prenup. The reason is very simple, in the event of the marriage ending they don't want to have the business be put into jeopardy by having an outsider own part of it or by having one of the partners have to sell their stake to fund the divorce proceedings. It doesn't always firewall off the company from trouble when a divorce happens but it does help. I've never heard of a spouse balking at the idea of a prenup in these situations. Most people are pretty level headed about this. The only gotcha is that the spouse has to get something of value for signing the prenup, often the corporation itself will put up the money for this end of the deal. The last two deals friends have signed have had a clause that the spouse gets the equivalent of the highest 3 years of pay in the event of a divorce where no one is at fault and the marriage lasts 5+ years. This is separate from what ever other assets the couple splits. If you are a business owner this just makes way to much sense to not consider.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > One instance where I see alot of people sign prenup is in the case where one person is a partner in a business, whether it be a lawyer IIRC, its a violation of the ABA model rules for a non-lawyer hold a partnership in a law firm (or, more precisely, for a lawyer to be a partner in or work in such a firm, which amounts to the same thing.)
- pc86 10y ago
  This is very common, especially with the fields you mention where the potential earnings are very high for partners.
- Balgair 10y ago
  And suddenly, the stereotypes of the high number of divorces of these people becomes crystal clear. I never though of this aspect to those high pressure lives, but now soooooo much makes sense. Thank you!
strictnein 10y ago
My wife and I came from two very different income brackets. My father was a successful businessman and while we were dating sold his company. His share was in the low 8 figure range. He died a year or two later due to a congenital heart defect. We thought about a prenup for a while, my wife was even on board, but every time we started to actually work on getting it set up, it all felt very weird and unsettling. It's also kind of strange, in that I personally didn't have much in the way of assets, but my mother was left with too much to ever spend, and my father had a generation skipping trust setup that was funded by his life insurance, so that my kids were destined to be multi-millionaires before they were even born (something that we are keeping from them until my mother passes). So, we were kind of planning around the possibility that my mother would die early or that we would divorce after 30 years, and that seemed odd. 13 years and two kids later ... shrug
hendersoon 10y ago
A friend of mine got married with a pre-nup. He also married a woman with dramatically less assets. His reasoning was simply that /not/ having a pre-nup introduces a negative incentive to the relationship. Every time they have an argument, his wife could think "If I dump this jerk, I make $X!". So it's not about planning for disaster, it's about /avoiding/ disaster. That seemed like a reasonable argument to me. His fiancee obviously disagreed, but he wore her down.
- Jtsummers 10y ago
  The argument, to her, would likely sound like, "I don't think you really want me. So sign this pre-nup and prove it." It displays a lack of trust and faith in the partner. Without that faith, what's the point of getting married?
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    Oh absolutely, to both of your points. It reportedly was not a fun conversation, but they got past it.
  - belorn 10y ago
    If both parties has complete faith, then the existence of the pre-nup is irrelevant. it would be like signing a paper in the event that the sun burns out and the earth explodes. The argument, to him, would sound like "I don't think you expect this marriage to last. Refuse to sign this pre-nup and prove that you intend to issue divorce in a few years".
    - Jtsummers 10y ago
      I agree. IF both parties have faith it's irrelevant. But when one party is pushing it, it demonstrates a lack of faith. I understand it when your assets are particularly valuable (pre-marriage). I understand that it can be used to ensure an easy (easier) divorce, in the worst case. But the post I was responding to, the man figured that without the pre-nup she'd always be thinking, "I can leave and take half." That indicates that he has no faith in her, not the other way around. Making that case will ruin her faith in him and will ruin (or has a high likelihood to) the relationship.
hackcasual 10y ago
9 years ago I got married and got a prenup to protect a trust I had been given from my mother's passing. 2 years ago I got divorced. I got to find out that what the prenup protected was already protected as a matter of law, and that further the language in the prenup implied it protected her contributions to her 401k, but only protected the interest on mine. It was a very badly drafted prenup. In the end, it involved additional time and expense to get an expert on family law in the state we were married in (got divorced in another state) and mediation to come up with an agreement that was fair. Those who think that prenups are a smart thing to prevent yourself from getting screwed in a divorce, keep in mind the just add to the complexity of a break up and in many cases end up just getting tossed out.
Stasis5001 10y ago
There are very good reasons why Susan should be against a prenup. Suppose her and Daniel have a child, and they both agree that it makes sense for Susan to quit her job and raise the child at home. If they have a prenup, a divorce is devastating to Susan. She's made no income and will likely have trouble finding employment since her skills may have atrophied. Does this seem fair?
- antisthenes 10y ago
  It actually does seem fair, because regardless of the prenup Susan will be entitled to a sizeable alimony and child support, based on Daniel's income. Since women are more likely to initiate divorce, it would be in her interest to keep the marriage alive to the best of her ability. The man bears the higher risk here, so the post-divorce split should represent that accordingly.
hedgew 10y ago
A perspective from Scandinavia; this sounds absurd and unequal. It's rare for anyone not to have a prenup here. The law also treats both genders equally in divorce (most recently, fathers' rights to their children were improved). I don't really understand why anyone would even get married in California with laws like that, it sounds like a bad deal, for both you and the relationship.
Camillo 10y ago
A prenup is a bad idea, because it means you're getting married.
DamnYuppie 10y ago
I find it interesting that many of the comments seem to paint that marriage is about love/trust. This is a relatively modern interpretation of the institution. It has, since the dawn of time, been an institution meant to ensure stability and continual propagation of the species. It was usually a way to improve ones lot in life or ensure their well being. Also until very recently, last 150 years, it was common to have a marriage contract. To me love has very little to do with marriage, those who seem to think that it does generally find themselves in divorce court. One should focus on having a shared vision of what they want their life to be and be willing to make room for their partners eccentricities. Emotions come and go and are not a great foundation for a relationship. Trust, compromise, hardwork, and support should be the bedrock.
- dionidium 10y ago
  This is a relatively modern interpretation of the institution Well, sure, and in response to massive societal changes. More people than ever aren't even having children. What need do they have for an institution that assists in that endeavor? So what is the trust, compromise, and hard work supposed to be in support of?
  - armitron 10y ago
    Going through life together, trying to achieve shared goals. Why does everything have to be about children?
    - dionidium 10y ago
      It doesn't. That's what the person I was responding to said marriage was for.
  - DamnYuppie 10y ago
    I do not recall stating it was only about children currently. My stance was there is an over emphasis that marriage is about love or that it should be large component of it. I don't agree with that. Trust, comprise, and hard work are to be in support of each other in attaining their shared vision of their life, whatever that is.
johnnymonster 10y ago
The bottom line is that 2 people should educate themselves on the legalities of marriage before they enter into the agreement. Far too often people just jump into legal contracts without understanding what it means to them in the long term. The legal terms of marriage without a contract differ from state to stage and if the wife wants to punish you could always just move into a different state, reside there for the minimum time and then divorce you there to get the rules in her favor. Always try to see it from the good and evil side. The point is that you would not purchase a home or a car without a contract or knowing what the implied contract is before hand. I've personally been burned pretty badly in a past divorce solely because I didn't find out the laws before hand and was tricked into something that I was not educated on.
bdcravens 10y ago
There are a lot of intangibles values that seem overlooked when it comes to "protecting what's mine". The value of bearing and raising children, if that's how it plays out. Potential career benefits that may come out of doubling your network, etc.
bunnymancer 10y ago
Marriage is a contract. Should a contract have terms and conditions? Yes. Yes it should.
niccaluim 10y ago
Get. A. Prenup. Trust me on this; I should know. You have _no_ idea what the future will bring. You might have comparable assets and income now, but that could change. People have a tendency to dramatically underestimate how different their lives will be in even just 5-10 years. Prenups protect both parties. They aren't just a way for one spouse to raise a fortress around their assets. What if the balance of income changes during the marriage? It could. You don't know. Just because things are a certain way now, doesn't mean they will be later. And you might be madly in love today, but when things go south, it brings out the absolute worst in people. Negotiate these things now while you still have each other's best interests in mind; don't wait until you hate each other and are trying to get revenge.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  It seems like a prenup preemptively protecting assets that do not exist would be rather difficult both to write and to enforce.
  - niccaluim 10y ago
    Protecting future assets is the whole point. In community property states, assets acquired prior to the marriage are already separate property.
rbcgerard 10y ago
two points: 1. the bigger question is how many soon-to-be-married people actually understand the contractual obligations they are making when they go get their marriage license - it's frankly inexcusable not to educate yourself on this subject - you read your employment contract right? 2. a prenuptial agreement can be anything, a lot of people have preconceived notions of what it means, but really it just means when it comes to issue x, we don't want to use the default state statute/regulation/interpretation we want to solve this issue in y way...
chinathrow 10y ago
As a founder and owner, I tend to get a prenup too. If my shares gain value after a valuation round, I might be forced to sell my part of the company in case I would need to liquidate those shares during a divorce.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > As a founder and owner, I tend to get a prenup too. This phrasing makes it sound like marriage is a repeated event for you, for which you usually get a prenup.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Additionally, I consulted a few family law attorneys, and I got quotes from a $2,500 flat fee to $500/hr (with a total budget of up to $10,000). And note that whatever you are quoted is the cost for each partner: either partner not having independent legal counsel is one of the reasons for which a prenup can be voided.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
Isn't it kind of like "should you get insurance?" We can be glad that Daniel, after a long bachelorhood, found someone to spend his remaining days with. But we can't evaluate anything at all about the future prospects of the relationship without more information. Over the years I've known people on both sides of the situation, where their spouse turned out to be just someone who wanted to marry a tech millionaire and then divorce them after getting control of a chunk of assets, and people who are still going strong seeing the world and enjoying life. If your spouse stays at home with the kids while you work, its a great idea to have life insurance to cover their needs if something happened to you. If you're both retired and your kids are grown up and moved away? Well its nice to have something to cover funeral arrangements. Seems like the situation is everything here.
anotherevan 10y ago
I never even considered a prenup, but we were young, of similar wealth (or lack there of). If heaven forbid anything happened and I was remarrying, I would probably be considering a prenup, or at least a carefully thought out will because there are now children involved. My sister-in-law had a prenup - her husband brought significantly more assets and earning potential to the relationship - however I seem to remember the ratios changed over time such that it evened out the longer they were married, which seemed a reasonable approach to me.
anotherevan 10y ago
An interesting (to me at least) variation on this is a Jewish prenuptial agreement[1] that basically said the husband would provide a get[2] if they were divorced under the law of the land. Apparently it is reasonably common now, but when one of my best friends go married it was a new thing, at least in our part of the world. It was something their Rabbi insisted on. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_prenuptial_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_prenuptial_agreement [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_%28divorce_document%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_%28divorce_document%29
tapiwa 10y ago
Prenups are strange in that those who are mature enough to get them, probably don't need them, and those who aren't, do need them. If I had my way, prenups would be a mandatory requisite for anyone applying for a marriage licence. Here's why. On Maturity, Frankness, Honesty & Disclosure:: I'll call the decision to get married, Peak Love. You are about to spend a chunk of money on a party, so I'm thinking you are pretty loved up. This is the time to be having the hard conversations. I can almost guarantee that if you are not able to agree on what happens in the event of a divorce at this time, there is no way you're going to agree once you decide to divorce. As other posters have indicated too, both parties are forced to disclose their financial positions. No more "oops, I forgot to mention my $100k in credit card debt" conversations once you're already married. Divorces can be messy and acrimonous. With a lot of bitterness, anger, and all the other emotions that will make what should be a rational discussion seem like a Mid East peace negotiation summit. And once you go guns hot, it can get very very expensive very quickly. Cost is totally worth it:: Even allowing for the fact that your marriage will never fail, the fact that there is a non trivial chance it will, makes the cost of lawyering up for a pre nup totally worth it. Put slightly differently .... Prenup lawyers are cheaper than divorce lawyers. Especially if the other side decides to get nasty.

67 points by finangle 10y ago

> Daniel wanted to have a prenup, but Susan fought tooth and nail to keep it out of their marriage. Is this not a huge red flag about Susan's intentions?

partisan 10y ago
Or about Daniel's intentions? This is an ugly topic that you simply can't extract a solution for by applying cold logic. It involves, emotions, expectations, realities, possibilities, all wrapped up into one document that spells out what will happen if and when your marriage meets it's bitter demise. Read all you want on whether it is right or wrong and postulate as much as you want about it, but when it comes down to it and it's your turn to decide whether you are hedging for or against the success of your marriage, it will be a deeply personal decision that no one will have any right to make calls on.
- wk_end 10y ago
  Assuming that it were a red flag about Daniel's intentions, what would Daniel's intentions be?
  - keyanp 10y ago
    edit
    - pc86 10y ago
      > They could, for example, be to leave Susan within a relatively short amount of time in order to marry someone younger. And should he do that, it's hard to argue with a straight face that she deserves half of everything. > Or to prevent Susan from having an obvious recourse in the event that Daniel commits adultery. How often to prenups give the cheating party a free pass?
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        > How often to prenups give the cheating party a free pass? In some states, notably including California, infidelity clauses have been held to be unenforceable provisions in prenuptial agreements, as contrary to public policy (specifically, in CA, that policy as expressed in no-fault divorce laws.) So, if the agreement purports to create penalties for cheating that vary what the distribution of assets would be without it, that provision may not have any legal effect.
  - partisan 10y ago
    To marry and leave without the typical financial penalties. It's no more or less likely than her intentions being bad.
    - hasenj 10y ago
      Penalties for what?
    - wk_end 10y ago
      Why would those be Daniel's intentions though? What does he have to gain by doing that? Susan obviously has a tremendous to gain by doing that sans prenup, which is precisely why people perceive her reluctance to get one as a red flag, but unless I'm missing something, Daniel wouldn't really gain anything by doing that except a whole bunch of legal fees. If he wanted to leave her, why marry her?
- hasenj 10y ago
  His intentions to protect his assets from unfair laws? How is that a bad intention?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ajoy39 10y ago
depends on what's in the prenup and who is making what. Maybe the prenup says they spit everything 50-50 and Susan makes more/has a nicer house. Or maybe she's going in to a more lucrative career field. Or, maybe she's just offended at the notion that her future husband is already planning an exit strategy (that last part is mostly my own feelings about prenups coming through)
Dirlewanger 10y ago
Yup. Why else would she fight it? It's in her best interest for there not to be one if shit hits the fan, plain and simple. Hopefully people here will be more levelheaded than other online communities when it comes to gender relations and realize how not having a prenup is insane, and additionally, how absolutely fucked family law is not only in California, but pretty much the entire country.
- dionidium 10y ago
  Hopefully people here will be more levelheaded than other online communities I wouldn't count on it. We're talking about hedging on trust in a relationship whose primary component is trust. That is a blueprint for an emotional response. (And why shouldn't it be?)
praxulus 10y ago
No. In our culture a prenup is a sign of distrust, or that you don't expect a marriage to succeed. Rational or not, people who have no gold-digging intentions can still be extremely opposed to prenups.
- irrational 10y ago
  But in our culture isn't it also assumed that the marriage will end someday? I once overheard the mother of the groom saying how much she loved her new daughter-in-law and thought that she would make a great first-wife for her son!
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    No, I don't think that is assumed by most people getting married.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > But in our culture isn't it also assumed that the marriage will end someday? Not in my culture, I don't know about yours. > I once overheard the mother of the groom saying how much she loved her new daughter-in-law and thought that she would make a great first-wife for her son! "I once overheard..." is a fairly thin reed to hang an inference of broad cultural expectation on.
  - askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
    Generally, people assume that a plurality of marriages that aren't theirs will end. Their marriage, of course, isn't like those. We humans are really bad at seeing our biases.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      > Generally, people assume that a plurality of marriages that aren't theirs will end. A plurality is the largest individual share where there is no majority. Since marriages have only two outcomes (end by death, end by divorce), there is no room for a plurality, only a majority one way or the other. I don't think people falsely assume other outcomes which reduce the biggest share to a mere plurality. And there is precious little evidence to support that the biggest share (majority or plurality) is to end in divorce.
steve-benjamins 10y ago
Nah. It's entirely possible that Susan's intentions are benevolent here. Being able to trust that both of you are committed is critical to making a marriage work. While it's possible to trust each other's commitment and have a prenup, in practice it's not that simple. Relationship's have a delicate equilibrium of trust that needs to be maintained— a prenup does make this more complex. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just think being hesitant about a prenup is entirely sensible position.
dionidium 10y ago
The whole point of marriage is to make an unmake-able promise. If you're going to start hedging before you even say the words, then what's the point?
- armitron 10y ago
  This your (naive and/or totally fucked up) idea of marriage, certainly not what marriage is for the vast majority (i dare say) of the population.
  - dionidium 10y ago
    Nah, I think you've got this backwards. You're the oddball with the practical outlook on the institution. I'm actually less conveying my own feelings on marriage than I am describing how everyone around me seems to regard it.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    What is marriage for the vast majority of the population? It's certainly no longer about sex (and less and less about sexual exclusivity). It's not really about children. It's not an economic union. It's certainly not lifelong. So far as I can tell it's about a big party, and having the rest of society validate one's current relationship. It's not at all clear why we still have a great deal of permanence-presuming civil law covering what's now clearly become a private, temporary matter. What's the point?
    - armitron 10y ago
      It's a partnership that works on multiple levels. Not some disney fairy tale about unmake-able promises.
      - dionidium 10y ago
        Have you been to a wedding recently? Those vows aren't about practical concerns. They're about eternal love, as long as we both shall live, to have and to hold. You're free to layer whatever you want over top of that promise. But what you explicitly agree to with literal vows is all about the love, man.
rbcgerard 10y ago
its really hard to say without understanding the prenup

kefka 10y ago

I get it if there were children from a previous relationship. Sometimes step- relations can (and do) go sour, and that could guarantee that your children get a fair share. Aside that, wanting one shows to me that you're not wanting to be a partner. Instead, you want special dispensation as a 'separate-class' in the marriage. Just no, no, no.

askldfhjkasfhd 10y ago
It could also indicate that one's personal values do not include a complete melding of finances to be a partner. It's acceptable in a business arrangement to be partners with unequal stakes. In my opinion, it's useful to separate the love/trust/bonding from marriage. Marriage is a civil contract that says very little about the relationship.
hasenj 10y ago
> Aside that, wanting one shows to me that you're not wanting to be a partner. No, it shows that you are rational about who owns what assets.

erispoe 10y ago

IANAL, but it depends on the situation. A prenup is a way to protect your spouse's and your respective assets by having a wall in between them. You design the wall. So, let's say, if you do something risky and creditors can come after you, at least your spouse's assets are protected. Often though, creditors will seek collaterals with your spouse as well, but at least it has to be explicit and on a case-by-case basis. However, the US being a common law country, it's up to the judge to determine how enforceable they are. Apparently, judges are much less likely to enforce them in former spanish/mexican catholic states in the South-West than they are elsewhere in the country. So a prenup in California might be less useful than in New-York. Lastly, a prenup does not say anything about how much you love your spouse. If you love him/her, you should plan for his/her safety if you engage in activities risking your own assets. Going down together for the sake of it is not a wise display of marital love. Again, talk to your lawyer.

colmvp 10y ago

> In case you are curious, Daniel and Susan ended up not having a prenup. Daniel wanted to have a prenup, but Susan fought tooth and nail to keep it out of their marriage. Daniel is now at peace with the fact that he has to share whatever he makes during the marriage with Susan, knowing that the money he brought into the marriage will always be only his. Dear readers, do you think Daniel and Susan should have had a prenup? Huh, how surprising that the person with significantly less income and assets fought hard to prevent a prenup.

danvoell 10y ago
"share whatever he makes during the marriage with Susan" - my understanding is that you need to share not just what you make during marriage but also the assets you had before.
- DamnYuppie 10y ago
  That depends on the state. Most it is seen as separate unless you "co-mingle" them with shared assets, say invest in a business or home together.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  That depends on the jurisdiction -- and, mostly, that's the jurisdiction in which any hypothetical future divorce will occur. In California, pre-marriage assets are separate property, as well as certain things received during marriage (gifts, bequests, etc., as well as earnings such as rents derived from other separate property.) (California Family Code, Sec. 770.) Other things gained during the marriage are generally community (or, if gained outside of California, quasi-community, which is treated the same in a divorce) property.
- JoblessWonder 10y ago
  They cover this in the post but it depends on the state. Here is a snippet: > "Income generated from community property will remain community property, and income generated from separate property will remain separate property. So any investment income earned from Daniel’s savings before the marriage, or gifts or inheritances he receives during the marriage, will remain his separate property, while investment income generated from Daniel’s savings during the marriage will be community property."

dominotw 10y ago

most prenups are not usually honored in american courts. You have to go to great lengths to make sure prenup is airtight.

chaverma 10y ago
Or, you could not get married.
- finangle 10y ago
  Indeed! There are also people who choose to not get married because of tax reasons. I will write another article on the tax benefits and tax disadvantages on getting married. Stay tuned!
- Spivak 10y ago
  And commonlaw marriage states completely ruin that plan in some cases.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    There are like three states that have common-law marriage and it's not that easy to end up in one.
sna1l 10y ago
https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=6782 https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=6782 -- here is the language around why a California prenup wouldn't be enforceable
finangle 10y ago
You are right that some prenups are not enforced, for example, if one spouse can show that there is not a full disclosure of the other spouse's assets in the prenup, she was not represented by an attorney in signing the prenup, or she was not given enough time to review the prenup before signing it.

googletazer 10y ago

If your spouse has the same amount of assets, and in foreseable future will continue earning about the same as you - maybe not. If the spouse has less or more seems like a no brainer, why would you want to give her money she hasn't earned or take money you haven't earned in case of a divorce? So in 99% of cases - hell yeah.

labster 10y ago
Because love is more important than money?
- googletazer 10y ago
  Where does "love" and "I need the courts to give me the fruits of your labor connect"?
sokoloff 10y ago
My wife and I came into the relationship with wildly different assets and incomes (both never-married, no prior kids, late 30s). I wouldn't have considered a pre-nup for the simple reason that I'm wagering we'll be together for the duration and if not, I'm willing to share our familial resources amongst the 4 of us. We're together 10+ years now, two kids in elementary school, wife left a nearly 6-figure science job to stay home and raise the kids. Everyone seems happy with that arrangement. What I brought into the relationship 10-11 years ago has less bearing on our current financial standing than the support and promotions I've earned since and the investments we've made, most of which are made on paper with "my" money and "my" direction, but are nevertheless "ours" in every sense that matters to me/us. I've seen relationships that my friends have entered though, where my first thought was, "Boy, I hope they have a pre-nup..."
- googletazer 10y ago
  You and your wife fell on the side of the bell curve where its two reasonable people who see their assets as joint. I guess both of you have high risk tolerance as well. Vast majority of people I personally know do not see their assets in the same way.

LifeQuestioner 10y ago

If I marry a millionaire, and I earn 50k a year, I'd still want a prenup. What you earnt before has fuck all to do with me. Am I the only one who doesn't take this personally? Would you personally sign one if your spouse earned more?

nileshtrivedi 10y ago
Did you marry a millionaire while earning only 50K a year? What people say they will do and what they actually do can vary wildly.
- LifeQuestioner 10y ago
  And I'm sure you have enough evidence to make a judgment of a randomer over the Internet.
- LifeQuestioner 10y ago
  And very limited thinking sigh HN sigh

rekwah 10y ago

I'm curious if this is easier to handle with non-liquid assets? Imagine he has a $100k fishing boat instead of $100k stuffed in a mattress. Is the spouse more willing to sign a prenup if it's easier to make the mental separation between "mine" and "theirs" when it's a physical asset?

finangle 10y ago
If you have illiquid assets, I think it is more important for you to have a prenup. Say if you have a one million dollar house and run a business that is also worth one million, you might want to give your spouse the house and keep the business for yourself in the prenup. After all, you do not want your spouse who knows nothing about your business to have 50% interest in it. And it saves the headache of having to sell the house and split the proceeds in a divorce.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

this2shallpaas 10y ago

It doesn't surprise me if the person who has less income and fewer assets wouldn't want a prenup. Or people who believe it shows a lack of full commitment, a wrinkle in their Medieval/Disney love story. Prenups seem like a good idea for the partner with more assets, which is more often than not a male. Women are much more likely to initiate divorce. "In a survey of 2,262 adults in heterosexual partnerships over the course of five years, Rosenfeld found that women initiate divorces 69 percent of the time. On the whole, they also reported less satisfaction with their marriages than men." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/08/27/why-women-are-more-likely-to-initiate-divorce/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2015/08/27/wh...

emodendroket 10y ago
Well, one could easily say, by the same token, that "it doesn't surprise me that the person with more assets would want a prenup." I'm not sure why one person asserting their interests here is greed but the other person doing the same is prudence.
- this2shallpaas 10y ago
  Neither is (necessarily) greed- the motivation is probably benign, at least in many cases. But one is very likely prudence.
rbcgerard 10y ago
its not always the case, take the case where someone with relatively little assets but bright career prospects(say a new lawyer at big firm)marries a girl with rich parents, but no job, the the "rich" girl's essentially broke - is hypothetically worth a lot, in this case all of the "poorer" spouses's earnings would be treated as community property despite the other spouse bein far richer and not contributing much to community property

gamache 10y ago

Is a prenup a good idea? Let's examine a well-connected, basement-dwelling money hoarder in his quest to get a regular poor to Touch His Dick. Oh, what do you know, he caved to her demands!

dang 10y ago
Comments like this are a bannable offense on HN. Your comment history looks good otherwise, so we won't ban you for this one, but please don't post anything like it again. The threads here are for civil, substantive discussion.

carsongross 10y ago

In today's world? Absolutely. Divorce is the expected outcome of marriage now, and the man will get nuked in family court. If you have any significant assets you would be foolish not to protect them.

hebleb 10y ago
Who says divorce is the expected outcome of marriage? What's the point of getting married if that's the person's mindset?
- emodendroket 10y ago
  Call me cynical, but I feel like the people who write such comments don't really have to worry about it too much.
- gnaritas 10y ago
  > Who says divorce is the expected outcome of marriage? Statistics. What's more likely, divorce or marriage until death?
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > > Who says divorce is the expected outcome of marriage? > Statistics. [citation needed] > What's more likely, divorce or marriage until death? Probably, the latter. The popular "half of all marriages will end in divorce" was from near the peak in the particular methodology it used, and was based on projecting the then-past trend and making an estimate of lifetime probabilities for new marriages based on that trend extending out into the future, and even then it was a result of second and subsequent marriages having significantly higher divorce rates than earlier marriages, with first marriages, even in the projection, being substantially below 50% probability of ending in divorce. But its actually really hard to get a good idea of what is more likely when you don't have a way of actually sampling the space of interest (which would take reaching into the future), and various methodologies of estimating divorce risk (and even whether the rate at which marriages end in divorce is really rising or falling) come to different answers.

peterjancelis 10y ago

Timely post as just today I got engaged to my girlfriend. We will definitely go for a prenup, I want to avoid a 15 year long divorce battle like my parents had at all possible costs. I have created a subreddit for people interested in discussing prenups: https://www.reddit.com/r/prenup https://www.reddit.com/r/prenup

GFischer 10y ago
Interestingly enough, in my anecdotal evidence, couples who have a prenup don't divorce :) Maybe the mere fact of having enough trust to do a prenup marks a more mature marriage, more likely to succeed in the longer term?
- peterjancelis 10y ago
  Hope so! My fiancee is definitely super mature, only 24 years old but had to support her family (while studying) after her father died at 17 years old. She's completely onboard with us deciding what is fair in what scenario rather than outsourcing it to some parliament and court system somewhere.
throwawayprenup 10y ago
Congrats! Has the subject of a prenup come up before? If not, don't assume that conversation will go smoothly...
- peterjancelis 10y ago
  It's a required condition for me. She knows and has known for a long time.

throw7 10y ago

So I'm guessing Susan wasn't a "babe".

Kinnard 10y ago

In lieu of a prenup, perhaps a Ketubah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketubah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketubah

chollida1 10y ago

One instance where I see alot of people sign prenup is in the case where one person is a partner in a business, whether it be a lawyer, doctor, hedge fund, etc. In these situations its usually the firm that wants the prenup. The reason is very simple, in the event of the marriage ending they don't want to have the business be put into jeopardy by having an outsider own part of it or by having one of the partners have to sell their stake to fund the divorce proceedings. It doesn't always firewall off the company from trouble when a divorce happens but it does help. I've never heard of a spouse balking at the idea of a prenup in these situations. Most people are pretty level headed about this. The only gotcha is that the spouse has to get something of value for signing the prenup, often the corporation itself will put up the money for this end of the deal. The last two deals friends have signed have had a clause that the spouse gets the equivalent of the highest 3 years of pay in the event of a divorce where no one is at fault and the marriage lasts 5+ years. This is separate from what ever other assets the couple splits. If you are a business owner this just makes way to much sense to not consider.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> One instance where I see alot of people sign prenup is in the case where one person is a partner in a business, whether it be a lawyer IIRC, its a violation of the ABA model rules for a non-lawyer hold a partnership in a law firm (or, more precisely, for a lawyer to be a partner in or work in such a firm, which amounts to the same thing.)
pc86 10y ago
This is very common, especially with the fields you mention where the potential earnings are very high for partners.
Balgair 10y ago
And suddenly, the stereotypes of the high number of divorces of these people becomes crystal clear. I never though of this aspect to those high pressure lives, but now soooooo much makes sense. Thank you!

strictnein 10y ago

My wife and I came from two very different income brackets. My father was a successful businessman and while we were dating sold his company. His share was in the low 8 figure range. He died a year or two later due to a congenital heart defect. We thought about a prenup for a while, my wife was even on board, but every time we started to actually work on getting it set up, it all felt very weird and unsettling. It's also kind of strange, in that I personally didn't have much in the way of assets, but my mother was left with too much to ever spend, and my father had a generation skipping trust setup that was funded by his life insurance, so that my kids were destined to be multi-millionaires before they were even born (something that we are keeping from them until my mother passes). So, we were kind of planning around the possibility that my mother would die early or that we would divorce after 30 years, and that seemed odd. 13 years and two kids later ... shrug

hendersoon 10y ago

A friend of mine got married with a pre-nup. He also married a woman with dramatically less assets. His reasoning was simply that /not/ having a pre-nup introduces a negative incentive to the relationship. Every time they have an argument, his wife could think "If I dump this jerk, I make $X!". So it's not about planning for disaster, it's about /avoiding/ disaster. That seemed like a reasonable argument to me. His fiancee obviously disagreed, but he wore her down.

Jtsummers 10y ago
The argument, to her, would likely sound like, "I don't think you really want me. So sign this pre-nup and prove it." It displays a lack of trust and faith in the partner. Without that faith, what's the point of getting married?
- hendersoon 10y ago
  Oh absolutely, to both of your points. It reportedly was not a fun conversation, but they got past it.
- belorn 10y ago
  If both parties has complete faith, then the existence of the pre-nup is irrelevant. it would be like signing a paper in the event that the sun burns out and the earth explodes. The argument, to him, would sound like "I don't think you expect this marriage to last. Refuse to sign this pre-nup and prove that you intend to issue divorce in a few years".
  - Jtsummers 10y ago
    I agree. IF both parties have faith it's irrelevant. But when one party is pushing it, it demonstrates a lack of faith. I understand it when your assets are particularly valuable (pre-marriage). I understand that it can be used to ensure an easy (easier) divorce, in the worst case. But the post I was responding to, the man figured that without the pre-nup she'd always be thinking, "I can leave and take half." That indicates that he has no faith in her, not the other way around. Making that case will ruin her faith in him and will ruin (or has a high likelihood to) the relationship.

hackcasual 10y ago

9 years ago I got married and got a prenup to protect a trust I had been given from my mother's passing. 2 years ago I got divorced. I got to find out that what the prenup protected was already protected as a matter of law, and that further the language in the prenup implied it protected her contributions to her 401k, but only protected the interest on mine. It was a very badly drafted prenup. In the end, it involved additional time and expense to get an expert on family law in the state we were married in (got divorced in another state) and mediation to come up with an agreement that was fair. Those who think that prenups are a smart thing to prevent yourself from getting screwed in a divorce, keep in mind the just add to the complexity of a break up and in many cases end up just getting tossed out.

Stasis5001 10y ago

There are very good reasons why Susan should be against a prenup. Suppose her and Daniel have a child, and they both agree that it makes sense for Susan to quit her job and raise the child at home. If they have a prenup, a divorce is devastating to Susan. She's made no income and will likely have trouble finding employment since her skills may have atrophied. Does this seem fair?

antisthenes 10y ago
It actually does seem fair, because regardless of the prenup Susan will be entitled to a sizeable alimony and child support, based on Daniel's income. Since women are more likely to initiate divorce, it would be in her interest to keep the marriage alive to the best of her ability. The man bears the higher risk here, so the post-divorce split should represent that accordingly.

hedgew 10y ago

A perspective from Scandinavia; this sounds absurd and unequal. It's rare for anyone not to have a prenup here. The law also treats both genders equally in divorce (most recently, fathers' rights to their children were improved). I don't really understand why anyone would even get married in California with laws like that, it sounds like a bad deal, for both you and the relationship.

Camillo 10y ago

A prenup is a bad idea, because it means you're getting married.

DamnYuppie 10y ago

I find it interesting that many of the comments seem to paint that marriage is about love/trust. This is a relatively modern interpretation of the institution. It has, since the dawn of time, been an institution meant to ensure stability and continual propagation of the species. It was usually a way to improve ones lot in life or ensure their well being. Also until very recently, last 150 years, it was common to have a marriage contract. To me love has very little to do with marriage, those who seem to think that it does generally find themselves in divorce court. One should focus on having a shared vision of what they want their life to be and be willing to make room for their partners eccentricities. Emotions come and go and are not a great foundation for a relationship. Trust, compromise, hardwork, and support should be the bedrock.

dionidium 10y ago
This is a relatively modern interpretation of the institution Well, sure, and in response to massive societal changes. More people than ever aren't even having children. What need do they have for an institution that assists in that endeavor? So what is the trust, compromise, and hard work supposed to be in support of?
- armitron 10y ago
  Going through life together, trying to achieve shared goals. Why does everything have to be about children?
  - dionidium 10y ago
    It doesn't. That's what the person I was responding to said marriage was for.
- DamnYuppie 10y ago
  I do not recall stating it was only about children currently. My stance was there is an over emphasis that marriage is about love or that it should be large component of it. I don't agree with that. Trust, comprise, and hard work are to be in support of each other in attaining their shared vision of their life, whatever that is.

johnnymonster 10y ago

The bottom line is that 2 people should educate themselves on the legalities of marriage before they enter into the agreement. Far too often people just jump into legal contracts without understanding what it means to them in the long term. The legal terms of marriage without a contract differ from state to stage and if the wife wants to punish you could always just move into a different state, reside there for the minimum time and then divorce you there to get the rules in her favor. Always try to see it from the good and evil side. The point is that you would not purchase a home or a car without a contract or knowing what the implied contract is before hand. I've personally been burned pretty badly in a past divorce solely because I didn't find out the laws before hand and was tricked into something that I was not educated on.

bdcravens 10y ago

There are a lot of intangibles values that seem overlooked when it comes to "protecting what's mine". The value of bearing and raising children, if that's how it plays out. Potential career benefits that may come out of doubling your network, etc.

bunnymancer 10y ago

Marriage is a contract. Should a contract have terms and conditions? Yes. Yes it should.

niccaluim 10y ago

Get. A. Prenup. Trust me on this; I should know. You have _no_ idea what the future will bring. You might have comparable assets and income now, but that could change. People have a tendency to dramatically underestimate how different their lives will be in even just 5-10 years. Prenups protect both parties. They aren't just a way for one spouse to raise a fortress around their assets. What if the balance of income changes during the marriage? It could. You don't know. Just because things are a certain way now, doesn't mean they will be later. And you might be madly in love today, but when things go south, it brings out the absolute worst in people. Negotiate these things now while you still have each other's best interests in mind; don't wait until you hate each other and are trying to get revenge.

emodendroket 10y ago
It seems like a prenup preemptively protecting assets that do not exist would be rather difficult both to write and to enforce.
- niccaluim 10y ago
  Protecting future assets is the whole point. In community property states, assets acquired prior to the marriage are already separate property.

rbcgerard 10y ago

two points: 1. the bigger question is how many soon-to-be-married people actually understand the contractual obligations they are making when they go get their marriage license - it's frankly inexcusable not to educate yourself on this subject - you read your employment contract right? 2. a prenuptial agreement can be anything, a lot of people have preconceived notions of what it means, but really it just means when it comes to issue x, we don't want to use the default state statute/regulation/interpretation we want to solve this issue in y way...

chinathrow 10y ago

As a founder and owner, I tend to get a prenup too. If my shares gain value after a valuation round, I might be forced to sell my part of the company in case I would need to liquidate those shares during a divorce.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> As a founder and owner, I tend to get a prenup too. This phrasing makes it sound like marriage is a repeated event for you, for which you usually get a prenup.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Additionally, I consulted a few family law attorneys, and I got quotes from a $2,500 flat fee to $500/hr (with a total budget of up to $10,000). And note that whatever you are quoted is the cost for each partner: either partner not having independent legal counsel is one of the reasons for which a prenup can be voided.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

Isn't it kind of like "should you get insurance?" We can be glad that Daniel, after a long bachelorhood, found someone to spend his remaining days with. But we can't evaluate anything at all about the future prospects of the relationship without more information. Over the years I've known people on both sides of the situation, where their spouse turned out to be just someone who wanted to marry a tech millionaire and then divorce them after getting control of a chunk of assets, and people who are still going strong seeing the world and enjoying life. If your spouse stays at home with the kids while you work, its a great idea to have life insurance to cover their needs if something happened to you. If you're both retired and your kids are grown up and moved away? Well its nice to have something to cover funeral arrangements. Seems like the situation is everything here.

anotherevan 10y ago

I never even considered a prenup, but we were young, of similar wealth (or lack there of). If heaven forbid anything happened and I was remarrying, I would probably be considering a prenup, or at least a carefully thought out will because there are now children involved. My sister-in-law had a prenup - her husband brought significantly more assets and earning potential to the relationship - however I seem to remember the ratios changed over time such that it evened out the longer they were married, which seemed a reasonable approach to me.

anotherevan 10y ago

An interesting (to me at least) variation on this is a Jewish prenuptial agreement[1] that basically said the husband would provide a get[2] if they were divorced under the law of the land. Apparently it is reasonably common now, but when one of my best friends go married it was a new thing, at least in our part of the world. It was something their Rabbi insisted on. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_prenuptial_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_prenuptial_agreement [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_%28divorce_document%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_%28divorce_document%29

tapiwa 10y ago

Prenups are strange in that those who are mature enough to get them, probably don't need them, and those who aren't, do need them. If I had my way, prenups would be a mandatory requisite for anyone applying for a marriage licence. Here's why. On Maturity, Frankness, Honesty & Disclosure:: I'll call the decision to get married, Peak Love. You are about to spend a chunk of money on a party, so I'm thinking you are pretty loved up. This is the time to be having the hard conversations. I can almost guarantee that if you are not able to agree on what happens in the event of a divorce at this time, there is no way you're going to agree once you decide to divorce. As other posters have indicated too, both parties are forced to disclose their financial positions. No more "oops, I forgot to mention my $100k in credit card debt" conversations once you're already married. Divorces can be messy and acrimonous. With a lot of bitterness, anger, and all the other emotions that will make what should be a rational discussion seem like a Mid East peace negotiation summit. And once you go guns hot, it can get very very expensive very quickly. Cost is totally worth it:: Even allowing for the fact that your marriage will never fail, the fact that there is a non trivial chance it will, makes the cost of lawyering up for a pre nup totally worth it. Put slightly differently .... Prenup lawyers are cheaper than divorce lawyers. Especially if the other side decides to get nasty.