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High minimum wage is what prompted this automation in the first place. UBI will solve some problems and create new ones. So we will likely have the same amount

High minimum wage is what prompted this automation in the first place. UBI will solve some problems and create new ones. So we will likely have the same amount of problems or possibly more after UBI as before. How UBI will be funded is another matter, also how much $$$ will it provide? What is a necessity anymore, internet in my home? A cellphone? What a can of worms UBI is.

Scirra_Tom 10y ago
> High minimum wage is what prompted this automation in the first place. `High` is subjective. $x minimum wage did not prompt automaton, a rising minimum wage catalyses R&D into automaton with better incentives. It's inevitable, and Mr CEO was always going to fire everyone and replace them with robots the moment it became cost effective. > How UBI will be funded is another matter Larger profit margins for big corporations turning to automaton, let's tax them more.
karmicthreat 10y ago
Ok so say the minimum wage didn't go up. Wait 2-5 years for the price of robots to come down. Now can we fire the workers? These jobs are going away. Now or later its just a matter of a handful of years for big job losses. Raising minimum wage is for workers who are not going to be fired because of automation in the next 5+ years.
soundwave106 10y ago
It's a can of worms that really needs to be explored. Maybe the answer is not UBI, but there needs to be some good ideas on the best ways of transitioning to a "post-wage" world, if such is indeed happening (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/world-without-work/395294/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/world-wi...) Mind you, the robots-are-taking-our-jobs predictors have been wrong before. But if they aren't, the issue I see is that a big spoke of the modern capitalism wheel revolves around employment. Employment provides income that supports a wider range of people than mere rentiers can. These employees can in turn spend this income at businesses. If there is no consumer income, any business that depends on consumer demand... well, they have a problem. I guess it's easy to envision things being pushed a lot further, where automation has eliminated huge amounts of work. The main economy would thus largely be revolving around rentiers, who are unaffected by a lack of jobs, people that support the automation (which so far has been a relatively small group), and any other employment which can't be automated (in an extreme scenario this would be very little). From my perspective, such an economy would hardly look like modern capitalism at all, it would potentially look more like previous rentier-dominated economies. Because jobs are such an important pillar in 20th century life, there will probably also be a culture shock on top of that. Without some changes, it's possible that this transition will be rather rough (even if the automation doesn't quite go so far as some predict).
techlover14159 10y ago
Low interest rates are another culprit that few seem to identify. If that robot purchase can be financed with a 0.5% loan then it is suddenly very cost efficient to replace workers. There are other factors that come into play as well like overtime pay rules, medical costs/regulations for workers etc.

Scirra_Tom 10y ago

> High minimum wage is what prompted this automation in the first place. `High` is subjective. $x minimum wage did not prompt automaton, a rising minimum wage catalyses R&D into automaton with better incentives. It's inevitable, and Mr CEO was always going to fire everyone and replace them with robots the moment it became cost effective. > How UBI will be funded is another matter Larger profit margins for big corporations turning to automaton, let's tax them more.

karmicthreat 10y ago

Ok so say the minimum wage didn't go up. Wait 2-5 years for the price of robots to come down. Now can we fire the workers? These jobs are going away. Now or later its just a matter of a handful of years for big job losses. Raising minimum wage is for workers who are not going to be fired because of automation in the next 5+ years.

soundwave106 10y ago

It's a can of worms that really needs to be explored. Maybe the answer is not UBI, but there needs to be some good ideas on the best ways of transitioning to a "post-wage" world, if such is indeed happening (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/world-without-work/395294/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/07/world-wi...) Mind you, the robots-are-taking-our-jobs predictors have been wrong before. But if they aren't, the issue I see is that a big spoke of the modern capitalism wheel revolves around employment. Employment provides income that supports a wider range of people than mere rentiers can. These employees can in turn spend this income at businesses. If there is no consumer income, any business that depends on consumer demand... well, they have a problem. I guess it's easy to envision things being pushed a lot further, where automation has eliminated huge amounts of work. The main economy would thus largely be revolving around rentiers, who are unaffected by a lack of jobs, people that support the automation (which so far has been a relatively small group), and any other employment which can't be automated (in an extreme scenario this would be very little). From my perspective, such an economy would hardly look like modern capitalism at all, it would potentially look more like previous rentier-dominated economies. Because jobs are such an important pillar in 20th century life, there will probably also be a culture shock on top of that. Without some changes, it's possible that this transition will be rather rough (even if the automation doesn't quite go so far as some predict).

techlover14159 10y ago

Low interest rates are another culprit that few seem to identify. If that robot purchase can be financed with a 0.5% loan then it is suddenly very cost efficient to replace workers. There are other factors that come into play as well like overtime pay rules, medical costs/regulations for workers etc.