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Quoth the prof: Most risk analysis offers that in the face of substantial uncertainty, you opt for the more conservative path or hedge your bet (e.g., do not sh

Quoth the prof: Most risk analysis offers that in the face of substantial uncertainty, you opt for the more conservative path or hedge your bet (e.g., do not show up an hour late until you know the professor has an explicit policy for tolerating disrespectful behavior, check with the TA before class, etc.). Really? I always heard that it was better to apologize later than to ask permission first, at least when you're doing something as harmless as entering a classroom with a lecture in progress. Galloway sounds like a butthurt nitwit who missed his calling as a librarian. He probably isn't, of course, but he certainly doesn't take the high ground in his response to the student's perfectly civil letter. It's true that many doors open in the business world when you make a habit of being early, but it's also true that many doors open when you show up someplace where you aren't supposed to be at all.

barrkel 17y ago
A lot of kids (and they are kids) turn up at third level education (some institutions more than others) with an overweening sense of entitlement. Lessons like this aren't out of place.
- houseabsolute 17y ago
  Dressing someone down for doing something that is usually tolerated (sampling classes at the beginning of the term) is actually a little out of place in my opinion.
  - pingswept 17y ago
    Sampling classes doesn't occur at all schools. I'm an engineer now, but I've taught a few college classes, and having students walking in and out of the lecture is intensely irritating. Maybe it would be better if professors liked being treated like a salad bar, but I understand the sentiment. On the other hand, I wouldn't write an email like that (because I have better things to do (like argue about that email on Hacker News!)).
    - houseabsolute 17y ago
      I can see how it would be irritating. However, you as a provider of educational service are not entitled to your students' patronage. Without checking to see what else is on offer, how can they make an informed decision about which class they should spend their semester on? Surely you don't expect them to trust their luck. After the drop/switch deadline, I think this kind of policy would be fine (if a bit draconian).
      - andreyf 17y ago
        Without checking to see what else is on offer, how can they make an informed decision about which class they should spend their semester on. Personally, I would try to drop in on professors' office hours, contact them via email to ask for a quick chat to explain the course, or ask friends for a recommendation. I'm not sure exactly what one can get from 20 minutes of the "these are the books and this is the late policy" kind of stuff covered during the first lecture anyway.
        houseabsolute 17y ago
        Maybe so. I found that among the professors at my school only a handful had personalities that were at all engaging. The remainder ran the gamut from barely tolerable to completely unacceptable. You can get a sense of that factor in the first lecture.
        pingswept 17y ago
        You can also get a good sense of that factor by asking any person who has ever taken a class from that professor. This achieves the same objective, with a little more work and a little less rudeness from you (or whoever it is in this situation).
        pingswept 17y ago
        That's a good addition to what I said above. As a teacher, I'd be absolutely delighted to help students choose between classes, even if my classes weren't in the running. It's the, "I spent hours preparing this lecture, and now you are walking out in the middle of it," that I don't like.
- pc 17y ago
  When you're paying $50+/hour[1], I find a sense of entitlement somewhat justified. [1] $40k/year / (5 hours/day * 5 days/week * 32 weeks/year)
  - notaddicted 17y ago
    The 50+ decisive students are paying 50+ times more to be interrupted in order to service the indecision of “xxxx”.
    - Groxx 17y ago
      Try asking the students vs asking the prof. I'll give you two guesses to which finds arriving late / leaving early more offensive.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  The only sense of entitlement I saw was the professor's. Who's paying who, again?
  - camccann 17y ago
    Well, presumably, there's rather a lot of people paying good money for access to this professor's time and would prefer not to have class disrupted by inconsiderate people coming and going for no good reason. Being a paying customer doesn't grant an entitlement to be obnoxious while on someone else's property and I can't fathom why you think it would. If you got kicked out a movie for talking on a cell phone during the film, would you call the theater "entitled" and ask who's paying who?
    - randyt00 17y ago
      "Being a paying customer doesn't grant an entitlement to be obnoxious while on someone else's property and I can't fathom why you think it would." Straw man. Lame.
    - derefr 17y ago
      In my experience, these people never actually disrupt the class, only the professor. I don't know why you used an analogy of cell-phone usage; the much more obvious analogue is people who come in half-way through a movie. Do we kick them out? Do you, personally, even get annoyed by such people, or do you just wave it off?
      - Groxx 17y ago
        I've always seen this too. The classes where the prof doesn't make a big deal out of it? The lecture continues. Nobody remembers in 5 minutes, and everyone keeps going. More students pass the class too, as fewer end up annoyed / insulted that their non-laziness is being attacked, while everyone who simply didn't arrive is silently ignored. The classes where the prof does make a big deal out of it? Lots end up skipping over time, and everybody notices that someone came in because the prof takes time out of class to berate them, causing the prof to lose their (and their students) place in the lecture. The only "reason" I can see for behavior like that is that the professors are acting childish: they want to get even, at the expense of everyone's time, instead of getting over it.
- Urgel 17y ago
  I can only give anecdotes to back up my opinions here, but at my university, the most respected professors treated the students like adults, or even better, like customers who have paid a lot of money for a valuable service. These professors are respectful to the students, and they get respect in return. They treat students like the mature adults that they are, and the students act as they should.
colomon 17y ago
Hey, please leave off with the negative stereotypes of librarians...
- CamperBob 17y ago
  You know, I struggled with that simile, and it came down to either librarians or priests. :-P Neither one really worked, I agree. Should've gone with "prima ballerina," maybe.

barrkel 17y ago

A lot of kids (and they are kids) turn up at third level education (some institutions more than others) with an overweening sense of entitlement. Lessons like this aren't out of place.

houseabsolute 17y ago
Dressing someone down for doing something that is usually tolerated (sampling classes at the beginning of the term) is actually a little out of place in my opinion.
- pingswept 17y ago
  Sampling classes doesn't occur at all schools. I'm an engineer now, but I've taught a few college classes, and having students walking in and out of the lecture is intensely irritating. Maybe it would be better if professors liked being treated like a salad bar, but I understand the sentiment. On the other hand, I wouldn't write an email like that (because I have better things to do (like argue about that email on Hacker News!)).
  - houseabsolute 17y ago
    I can see how it would be irritating. However, you as a provider of educational service are not entitled to your students' patronage. Without checking to see what else is on offer, how can they make an informed decision about which class they should spend their semester on? Surely you don't expect them to trust their luck. After the drop/switch deadline, I think this kind of policy would be fine (if a bit draconian).
    - andreyf 17y ago
      Without checking to see what else is on offer, how can they make an informed decision about which class they should spend their semester on. Personally, I would try to drop in on professors' office hours, contact them via email to ask for a quick chat to explain the course, or ask friends for a recommendation. I'm not sure exactly what one can get from 20 minutes of the "these are the books and this is the late policy" kind of stuff covered during the first lecture anyway.
      - houseabsolute 17y ago
        Maybe so. I found that among the professors at my school only a handful had personalities that were at all engaging. The remainder ran the gamut from barely tolerable to completely unacceptable. You can get a sense of that factor in the first lecture.
        pingswept 17y ago
        You can also get a good sense of that factor by asking any person who has ever taken a class from that professor. This achieves the same objective, with a little more work and a little less rudeness from you (or whoever it is in this situation).
      - pingswept 17y ago
        That's a good addition to what I said above. As a teacher, I'd be absolutely delighted to help students choose between classes, even if my classes weren't in the running. It's the, "I spent hours preparing this lecture, and now you are walking out in the middle of it," that I don't like.
pc 17y ago
When you're paying $50+/hour[1], I find a sense of entitlement somewhat justified. [1] $40k/year / (5 hours/day * 5 days/week * 32 weeks/year)
- notaddicted 17y ago
  The 50+ decisive students are paying 50+ times more to be interrupted in order to service the indecision of “xxxx”.
  - Groxx 17y ago
    Try asking the students vs asking the prof. I'll give you two guesses to which finds arriving late / leaving early more offensive.
CamperBob 17y ago
The only sense of entitlement I saw was the professor's. Who's paying who, again?
- camccann 17y ago
  Well, presumably, there's rather a lot of people paying good money for access to this professor's time and would prefer not to have class disrupted by inconsiderate people coming and going for no good reason. Being a paying customer doesn't grant an entitlement to be obnoxious while on someone else's property and I can't fathom why you think it would. If you got kicked out a movie for talking on a cell phone during the film, would you call the theater "entitled" and ask who's paying who?
  - randyt00 17y ago
    "Being a paying customer doesn't grant an entitlement to be obnoxious while on someone else's property and I can't fathom why you think it would." Straw man. Lame.
  - derefr 17y ago
    In my experience, these people never actually disrupt the class, only the professor. I don't know why you used an analogy of cell-phone usage; the much more obvious analogue is people who come in half-way through a movie. Do we kick them out? Do you, personally, even get annoyed by such people, or do you just wave it off?
    - Groxx 17y ago
      I've always seen this too. The classes where the prof doesn't make a big deal out of it? The lecture continues. Nobody remembers in 5 minutes, and everyone keeps going. More students pass the class too, as fewer end up annoyed / insulted that their non-laziness is being attacked, while everyone who simply didn't arrive is silently ignored. The classes where the prof does make a big deal out of it? Lots end up skipping over time, and everybody notices that someone came in because the prof takes time out of class to berate them, causing the prof to lose their (and their students) place in the lecture. The only "reason" I can see for behavior like that is that the professors are acting childish: they want to get even, at the expense of everyone's time, instead of getting over it.
Urgel 17y ago
I can only give anecdotes to back up my opinions here, but at my university, the most respected professors treated the students like adults, or even better, like customers who have paid a lot of money for a valuable service. These professors are respectful to the students, and they get respect in return. They treat students like the mature adults that they are, and the students act as they should.

colomon 17y ago

Hey, please leave off with the negative stereotypes of librarians...

CamperBob 17y ago
You know, I struggled with that simile, and it came down to either librarians or priests. :-P Neither one really worked, I agree. Should've gone with "prima ballerina," maybe.