4 ms·

>Clicking the red cross on the right hand corner of the pop-up box now activates the upgrade instead of closing the box. This is just laughably evil. You can j

by Grue3 10y ago

>Clicking the red cross on the right hand corner of the pop-up box now activates the upgrade instead of closing the box. This is just laughably evil. You can just imagine the Microsoft CEO sitting on his throne and chuckling like a supervillain.

mobiuscog 10y ago
It's also completely wrong. The red X simply closes the notification - nothing more. Like pretty much every notification ever. The dialog is telling the user something will happen rather than asking them to make a choice. Unfortunately, users largely don't pay any attention to what they're doing...
- hendersoon 10y ago
  While that is true, you're missing that this is a change from how the upgrade dialogue worked for the past several months. In the past, it popped up a window asking when you want to schedule the upgrade, and the only way to get rid of it without agreeing to upgrade was to close the window. The difference is that now the upgrade is immediately scheduled without the user's consent. If you close the window, following your past behavior, it upgrades anyway. To stop the upgrade you need to click on an 8 point blue link. This didn't just start today. Everybody running windows 7 or 8 today has REPEATEDLY declined Windows 10 upgrade notifications for months on-end. These consumers made a choice not to upgrade, and Microsoft tricked them using standard malware tactics! That's why this is nothing less than a _shameful_ act by Microsoft.
  - mobiuscog 10y ago
    Nope. In the past, you received notifications that you could upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. This time, you received a notification to tell you it was going to upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. They're exactly the same process. The difference is that if you didn't actually read the notification, you didn't know what it was telling you. Anybody that really didn't want Windows 10 would have used one of the many ways, either through group policy or 3rd party apps, to prevent even being asked. Sure, many people don't read dialogs or notifications, but that's not Microsoft's fault - it's user's that can't be bothered to actually understand what they're doing.
    - mistersquid 10y ago
      > Sure, many people don't read dialogs or notifications, but that's not Microsoft's fault - it's user's that can't be bothered to actually understand what they're doing. Your response is either disingenuous or naive. Changing how software behaves as established by previous UI conventions with the differences restricted to changes in text labels is a known dark pattern. Furthermore, it is well known that an increasing percentage of users will not read to the end of a notification as they attempt to return to their initial task. [0] > As we all know, people tend to start reading at the beginning of a piece of text and as they advance, an increasing percentage of people give up and do not read to the end. Unquestionably, the effect of dismissing the notice is different and, also unquestionably, the people responsible for this behavioral change are well aware of how such a change would affect users who have no intention of upgrading. What such a change achieves, in addition to tricking unwitting users into upgrading, is plausible deniability. [0] http://alistapart.com/article/dark-patterns-deception-vs.-honesty-in-ui-design\ http://alistapart.com/article/dark-patterns-deception-vs.-ho... EDIT: Supply missing object. Rhetorical emphasis in last sentence.
      - mobiuscog 10y ago
        Except it's not changing how software behaves. In both cases, clicking the Red X dismisses the notification. That's it. Nothing more. That's the UI convention as it always has been. As for users not reading, that may well be the case - it doesn't mean it's not their fault. If you wanted to take aim at a screwy dialog, I'd go for the original [A]bort [R]etry or [C]ancel... This 'change' (that isn't) is nothing compared to around 75% of UIs today. Sure, lots of people are upset because something didn't do what they expected. Yup, the engineers sorting this out maybe aren't the greatest UI/UX people. To state that MS are trying to 'trick' people is the disingenuous line though. Anyway, I really can't be bothered to discuss it anymore, as (a) I read dialogs, (b) I have machines that aren't auto upgrading because I followed the methods to stop the prompts a while back, and (c) xkcd tells me it's time to stop.
        exodust 10y ago
        Regardless of people not reading dialog boxes, a major update of Windows can take a long time and be very disruptive. When it's done, things may look and feel unfamiliar and applications may not work. Such a significant change should not come about automatically by way of simply closing a dialog box. There should at least be one final dialog box requiring confirmation: "go ahead with Windows 10 update now? Yes/No" and if that dialog box has an X close button, it should be wired up to "no". If user clicks "yes", it would be polite to double check with "this update could take awhile, are you sure?" and supply links to a checklist of things people might want to know ahead of updating. This is undoubtedly a deceptive and aggressive UI pattern by Microsoft for their own product agenda, and the bad press is deserved.
nas 10y ago
I really thought Microsoft put that kind of sleazy behavior behind them. Guess old habits die hard.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  I've been using Microsoft software since IBM PCs actually were IBM PCs. I have never known Microsoft to be as blatantly user-hostile as they have been since the current leadership took over and the business strategy shifted. Until a few months ago, I might not have chosen to use their product in every case, but I generally trusted them. In particular, I expected the products I did use to be relatively good software by industry standards, to be relatively well-supported, and to provide genuine and effective ways to turn off any features like auto-updates or telemetry that I didn't want to enable. None of those things is true any longer, and I really am quite sad about that.
  - mobiuscog 10y ago
    Ballmer-led Microsoft was the scurge of the industry - it's improved 10-fold since Nadella took over. It's less user-hostile now than it's been in a long while. Anybody sufficiently tech-savvy enough to know how to keep safe without auto-updates can easily prevent them - for most people, they're a good idea. It's strange how in the web world, everything is always up-to-date and full of telemetry in every sense, but nobody really complains about that.
    - hendersoon 10y ago
      It's not easy to avoid auto-updates-- you need to edit a group policy to do it. Now your response would be that anyone who lacks the sophistication to do that should be forced to auto-update anyway. And I would agree, except the updates also force a reboot, which can be catastrophic to non-saved work, running processes, etc. And stopping the forced reboot after updating Win10 is VERY much non-trivial-- it's step 2 in the link below. https://superuser.com/questions/973009/conclusively-stop-wake-timers-from-waking-windows-10-desktop/973029#973029 https://superuser.com/questions/973009/conclusively-stop-wak... That's some serious mojo.

by Grue3 10y ago

mobiuscog 10y ago

It's also completely wrong. The red X simply closes the notification - nothing more. Like pretty much every notification ever. The dialog is telling the user something will happen rather than asking them to make a choice. Unfortunately, users largely don't pay any attention to what they're doing...

hendersoon 10y ago
While that is true, you're missing that this is a change from how the upgrade dialogue worked for the past several months. In the past, it popped up a window asking when you want to schedule the upgrade, and the only way to get rid of it without agreeing to upgrade was to close the window. The difference is that now the upgrade is immediately scheduled without the user's consent. If you close the window, following your past behavior, it upgrades anyway. To stop the upgrade you need to click on an 8 point blue link. This didn't just start today. Everybody running windows 7 or 8 today has REPEATEDLY declined Windows 10 upgrade notifications for months on-end. These consumers made a choice not to upgrade, and Microsoft tricked them using standard malware tactics! That's why this is nothing less than a _shameful_ act by Microsoft.
- mobiuscog 10y ago
  Nope. In the past, you received notifications that you could upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. This time, you received a notification to tell you it was going to upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. They're exactly the same process. The difference is that if you didn't actually read the notification, you didn't know what it was telling you. Anybody that really didn't want Windows 10 would have used one of the many ways, either through group policy or 3rd party apps, to prevent even being asked. Sure, many people don't read dialogs or notifications, but that's not Microsoft's fault - it's user's that can't be bothered to actually understand what they're doing.
  - mistersquid 10y ago
    > Sure, many people don't read dialogs or notifications, but that's not Microsoft's fault - it's user's that can't be bothered to actually understand what they're doing. Your response is either disingenuous or naive. Changing how software behaves as established by previous UI conventions with the differences restricted to changes in text labels is a known dark pattern. Furthermore, it is well known that an increasing percentage of users will not read to the end of a notification as they attempt to return to their initial task. [0] > As we all know, people tend to start reading at the beginning of a piece of text and as they advance, an increasing percentage of people give up and do not read to the end. Unquestionably, the effect of dismissing the notice is different and, also unquestionably, the people responsible for this behavioral change are well aware of how such a change would affect users who have no intention of upgrading. What such a change achieves, in addition to tricking unwitting users into upgrading, is plausible deniability. [0] http://alistapart.com/article/dark-patterns-deception-vs.-honesty-in-ui-design\ http://alistapart.com/article/dark-patterns-deception-vs.-ho... EDIT: Supply missing object. Rhetorical emphasis in last sentence.
    - mobiuscog 10y ago
      Except it's not changing how software behaves. In both cases, clicking the Red X dismisses the notification. That's it. Nothing more. That's the UI convention as it always has been. As for users not reading, that may well be the case - it doesn't mean it's not their fault. If you wanted to take aim at a screwy dialog, I'd go for the original [A]bort [R]etry or [C]ancel... This 'change' (that isn't) is nothing compared to around 75% of UIs today. Sure, lots of people are upset because something didn't do what they expected. Yup, the engineers sorting this out maybe aren't the greatest UI/UX people. To state that MS are trying to 'trick' people is the disingenuous line though. Anyway, I really can't be bothered to discuss it anymore, as (a) I read dialogs, (b) I have machines that aren't auto upgrading because I followed the methods to stop the prompts a while back, and (c) xkcd tells me it's time to stop.
      - exodust 10y ago
        Regardless of people not reading dialog boxes, a major update of Windows can take a long time and be very disruptive. When it's done, things may look and feel unfamiliar and applications may not work. Such a significant change should not come about automatically by way of simply closing a dialog box. There should at least be one final dialog box requiring confirmation: "go ahead with Windows 10 update now? Yes/No" and if that dialog box has an X close button, it should be wired up to "no". If user clicks "yes", it would be polite to double check with "this update could take awhile, are you sure?" and supply links to a checklist of things people might want to know ahead of updating. This is undoubtedly a deceptive and aggressive UI pattern by Microsoft for their own product agenda, and the bad press is deserved.

nas 10y ago

I really thought Microsoft put that kind of sleazy behavior behind them. Guess old habits die hard.

Silhouette 10y ago
I've been using Microsoft software since IBM PCs actually were IBM PCs. I have never known Microsoft to be as blatantly user-hostile as they have been since the current leadership took over and the business strategy shifted. Until a few months ago, I might not have chosen to use their product in every case, but I generally trusted them. In particular, I expected the products I did use to be relatively good software by industry standards, to be relatively well-supported, and to provide genuine and effective ways to turn off any features like auto-updates or telemetry that I didn't want to enable. None of those things is true any longer, and I really am quite sad about that.
- mobiuscog 10y ago
  Ballmer-led Microsoft was the scurge of the industry - it's improved 10-fold since Nadella took over. It's less user-hostile now than it's been in a long while. Anybody sufficiently tech-savvy enough to know how to keep safe without auto-updates can easily prevent them - for most people, they're a good idea. It's strange how in the web world, everything is always up-to-date and full of telemetry in every sense, but nobody really complains about that.
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    It's not easy to avoid auto-updates-- you need to edit a group policy to do it. Now your response would be that anyone who lacks the sophistication to do that should be forced to auto-update anyway. And I would agree, except the updates also force a reboot, which can be catastrophic to non-saved work, running processes, etc. And stopping the forced reboot after updating Win10 is VERY much non-trivial-- it's step 2 in the link below. https://superuser.com/questions/973009/conclusively-stop-wake-timers-from-waking-windows-10-desktop/973029#973029 https://superuser.com/questions/973009/conclusively-stop-wak... That's some serious mojo.