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Microsoft criticized for changing the pop-up box encouraging users to upgrade

79 points by fredley 10y ago

LionessLover 10y ago
I just re-activated that dialog (I had disabled it with registry setting changes) because I don't want to miss the free upgrade option but use it at the last moment. Anyway - I found that when I simply say "No" to the inevitable "Terms and conditions" license dialog question the upgrade stops even if you said "go ahead" in the previous step.
- ericolo 10y ago
  Wanted to comment precisely this. Yesterday my gf called me because she had W10 on her laptop, installed, and about to start all the process of adding the user and stuff (I think). I clicked "I do no accept" to the license, got a warning that then they needed to restore my previous version of windows, and 10 minutes later the laptop was working as before. Guess now I know why that happened.
  - 0x0 10y ago
    Did the downgrade work perfectly? There's been a lot of reports of small things not working anymore, like scheduled tasks - https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/80e4f83d-1529-4405-b8e3-d1d636f8b71c/task-scheduler-is-broken-after-windows-10-downgrade?forum=win10itprogeneral https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/80e4f83d-1...
krapp 10y ago
The change occurred because the update is now labelled "recommended" and many people have their PCs configured to accept recommended updates for security reasons. Turn off automatic updating and never turn it back on, ever. At this point, the biggest threat to Windows machines seems to be Microsoft themselves. Manually update any Windows machines you run, unchecking the Windows 10 upgrade every single time. It will never stay unchecked, nor will it ever not be recommended. Until Microsoft decides to override that and literally force it on everyone, which I don't doubt they will do as soon as they feel they can afford the class action lawsuits that will result from the few stragglers remaining, there is no other way to avoid the upgrade, unless you actually want to hack the registry or something.
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  > Turn off automatic updating and never turn it back on, ever. At this point, the biggest threat to Windows machines seems to be Microsoft themselves. And if you turn off automatic updates, you become the biggest threat to your machine's security. (As well as to many other people on the Internet, when your system becomes compromised and starts sending spam, DoS attacks, or other botnet activities.) Yes, some people don't like Windows 10. But Windows has moved to the "evergreen" software model, as have many other pieces of software (including browsers). If you don't like Windows 10, the answer isn't "run Windows 7 forever"; the answer is "stop running Windows, because you don't like where it's going (or has already gone)".
  - cptskippy 10y ago
    Sadly there are a lot of people out there who will stick to 7 or XP for no particularly good reason and they'll suffer for it. I'm curious what will happen to Windows 10 users who can no longer update their systems. The anniversary update due out next month is said to require 4GB minimum on all systems, how many systems will be left in the lurch because of that and what happens to them? I have a couple Windows Tablets that won't be able to upgrade.
    - blibble 10y ago
      buy a new machine, and hey look, MS will get $100 for the OEM copy of Windows "free" upgrade, yeah right
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    The answer is whatever works for the person running the machine. If I choose to run Windows 7 forever and only use internet services from a VM - that's my prerogative. > And if you turn off automatic updates, you become the biggest threat to your machine's security. The typical user is already the biggest threat to their machine's security, regardless of whether updates are turned off or on. There's no windows update that specifically protects users from even the most common threats if the user doesn't exercise due diligence.
Ambroos 10y ago
I get that Microsoft wants to get people to upgrade, but forcing it like this is just plain rude Reality is, there are still driver issues on older hardware (especially laptops) with Windows 10. Some of my friends get random hangs since upgrading. My grandma's sister had her laptop upgraded and can't find anything anymore. It's a huge download and a huge change in how your computer works. This is not something you should just force on your users by tricking them to install it. Nudges and prompts are fine by me. Pushing it as an opt-out thing you have to actively cancel is just awful.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  It's not just older hardware, I upgraded an 2015 HP Stream Mini to Windows 10 and it died during the install after it had wiped Windows 8 essentially bricking the computer.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mkohlmyr 10y ago
  My girlfriend's laptop touchpad died upon update. After stopping her panic I had to enable using arrow keys for the cursor movement (getting to this menu without using said cursor was interesting..) and then roll back the "upgrade" using arrow keys.
  - pyromine 10y ago
    Why was getting to the menu interesting, keyboard navigation in windows is a pretty well established paradigm, it may take marginally longer than you're used to but there are many people who primarily use their computer with the keyboard only.
    - pc86 10y ago
      Probably because you're telling someone who has only ever used a mouse or trackpad to get to an interior settings screen without using a mouse or trackpad. Just because "many people" do something doesn't make it easy or intuitive to someone who has never done it.
rossng 10y ago
I have already spent several hours this week on the university student IT helpdesk fixing laptops broken by this Windows 10 update. Every single person said they hadn't chosen to update - clearly it was a result of this popup. Most of the failures were broken drivers that prevented Windows from even booting. It particularly annoys me that Windows 10 tries to install itself on completely incompatible hardware. A nasty dark pattern.
arca_vorago 10y ago
I'm going to share the best way I have found to kill any particular thing in windows you don't like, including GWX: (this is not my full script, just a section, so you will have to modify it) taskkill /IM GWX* takeown /r /d N /f c:\windows\system32\gwx icacls c:\windows\system32\gwx\. /c /t /deny everyone:F icacls c:\windows\system32\gwx /c /t /deny everyone:F reg add HKLM\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx /v DisableGwx /t REG_DWORD /d 1 edit: one thing I ran into that caused me to use this hackish script is that, at least in the early GWX days, windows updates were re-enabling the GWX and update registry keys. So a few tuesdays later and GWX is back and asking to upgrade again.
- sfont 10y ago
  This is my registry changes that has worked every time. Even when the install is set to kick off with the next reboot. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade] "ReservationsAllowed"=dword:00000000 "KickoffDownload"=dword:00000000 "KickoffSource"=dword:00000000 "AllowOSUpgrade"=dword:00000000 "Refresh"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade\State] "OSUpgradeState"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate] "DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx] "DisableGwx"=dword:00000001
  - zxcvcxz 10y ago
    On Linux we just close the update window.
  - tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
    interesting, I knew about the last two, but not the OSUpgrade ones, did you find those are needed as well?
    - sfont 10y ago
      I copied the first part from a domain joined PC before a later update caused them to receive the upgrade prompt as well. It's kind of belt and suspenders so it doesn't harm but may not actually be needed.
oarsinsync 10y ago
Having done a fresh install of Win7 recently, I can confirm that only installing important updates, not treating recommended updates the same, and being highly selective of which optional updates (i.e. drivers only) prevents any of the Windows 10 upgrade stuff from being installed. This doesn't help anyone who has previously done things differently (which was generally accepted as the best practice), but if you're setting up any new hosts, the above may work out as well for you as it has for me.
- degenerate 10y ago
  For those of you (or people you know) that still keep getting nagged about Win10, this freeware works great at killing all the system tray, balloon, and popup notifications: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/
Grue3 10y ago
>Clicking the red cross on the right hand corner of the pop-up box now activates the upgrade instead of closing the box. This is just laughably evil. You can just imagine the Microsoft CEO sitting on his throne and chuckling like a supervillain.
- mobiuscog 10y ago
  It's also completely wrong. The red X simply closes the notification - nothing more. Like pretty much every notification ever. The dialog is telling the user something will happen rather than asking them to make a choice. Unfortunately, users largely don't pay any attention to what they're doing...
  - hendersoon 10y ago
    While that is true, you're missing that this is a change from how the upgrade dialogue worked for the past several months. In the past, it popped up a window asking when you want to schedule the upgrade, and the only way to get rid of it without agreeing to upgrade was to close the window. The difference is that now the upgrade is immediately scheduled without the user's consent. If you close the window, following your past behavior, it upgrades anyway. To stop the upgrade you need to click on an 8 point blue link. This didn't just start today. Everybody running windows 7 or 8 today has REPEATEDLY declined Windows 10 upgrade notifications for months on-end. These consumers made a choice not to upgrade, and Microsoft tricked them using standard malware tactics! That's why this is nothing less than a _shameful_ act by Microsoft.
    - mobiuscog 10y ago
      Nope. In the past, you received notifications that you could upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. This time, you received a notification to tell you it was going to upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. They're exactly the same process. The difference is that if you didn't actually read the notification, you didn't know what it was telling you. Anybody that really didn't want Windows 10 would have used one of the many ways, either through group policy or 3rd party apps, to prevent even being asked. Sure, many people don't read dialogs or notifications, but that's not Microsoft's fault - it's user's that can't be bothered to actually understand what they're doing.
0x0 10y ago
I know several people who tried to be super diligent in opting out of windows 10 only to wake up to a win10 install on their PCs. They all ended up buying Macbooks the next day. Forced windows 10 upgrades seem to be the best advertisement OS X could ever get.
- exodust 10y ago
  Sounds fishy. I get that sneaky OS updating is unwanted, but it can be avoided and there's an easy 3 click process to roll back if Windows 10 is installed. Don't forget that Apple now enforce mandatory iOS updates, with no option to opt out or disable the annoying reminders. Even if you have automatic system updates turned off, the point release iOS updates are downloaded without your permission in the background when the phone or iPad is charging. These updates might be between 80 - 300 MB. The notification dialog boxes then begin their attack, every day with two options "install now / remind me later". This is actually worse than Windows, since on Windows we at least have the option to disable the scheduled update and the reminder notifications. Not so on iOS as of version 9.
cjensen 10y ago
I got tired of being asked, so I used Never10 [1] which is freeware from a reputable developer [2]. Never10 can also undo the decision and let you upgrade if you change your mind. [1] https://www.grc.com/never10.htm https://www.grc.com/never10.htm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gibson_(computer_programmer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gibson_(computer_program...
- zapu 10y ago
  Also critique about [2]: 1) http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/7 http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/7 regarding "raw socket panic" 2) http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.gnhlug/22505 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.gnhlu... regarding questionable SpinRite application to fix hard drive errors
  - cjensen 10y ago
    Yep, that's what the cite is for. Eccentric and sometimes "crazy uncle", but has a reputation and isn't trying to murder your computer on purpose.
- gnu8 10y ago
  Gibson isn't a reputable programmer, he's a noted Infoseek charlatan [1]. The proper tool for preventing Windows 10 upgrades is Ultimate Outsider's GWX control panel [2], not Gibson's poor me-too gimmick. [1] http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/ http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/ [2] http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/
pmx 10y ago
Seeing them this desperate to get windows 10 on to people's computers for FREE really has me worries about their motivations. I know it's loaded with tracking and spy features, are they selling that collected data and want as many people contributing to it as possible? Whether they want to or not? If I could afford it I'd get a mac and be done with this nonsense. Used to use ubuntu but I need photoshop :(
- Zardoz84 10y ago
  I just begin to shift again to my kUbuntu install. I try to use Windows 10 only for playing games that aren't yet on Steam for Linux.
  - kjax 10y ago
    I found myself in the same boat, but eventually just dropped Windows altogether. Once Linux desktops can better work with and calibrate ICC profiles, I'll really have no urge to go back.
    - zxcvcxz 10y ago
      The GNOME 3 desktop works pretty well with ICC profiles for me.
- dspillett 10y ago
  A chunk of the telemetry recorded by Windows 10 has been back-ported to 7 and 8 in updates since anyway so that isn't a reason not to upgrade (though if it is a concern to you it is a reason not to use 7 or 8 as much as it is a reason not to use 10). I have two machines that will likely never see Windows 10: a laptop on which it ran like a one legged arthritic dog (8 wasn't terribly fast on there, 10 was just impossible, it currently runs Debian as a test-bed for a few things) and a tablet that had significant driver issues that I don't particularly expect to see resolved (so it'll be sticking at 8 as I don't have time to upgrade and roll back again if it fails, my time is precious!). The "but it is free" thing amuses me somewhat. Does anyone else remember hearing the "Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing" mantra from various Microsoft supporting camps?
zxcvcxz 10y ago
Update broke my parents friends wifi and of course they call me and ask for help, and of course they don't own an ethernet cable, and of course all he does is use the web browser to look at porn.
- Fuxy 10y ago
  If that is really the only thing they use I would just install Linux mint on it in the long run it's probably better for them. It's surprisingly easy to install mallware and viruses on a windows computer cumputer these days see download.com for a good example. Even I've done it a few times by accident luckily it was in a VM so I just scrapped it. There's basically no difference if all you do is browse the internet and if they run into issued doing something and the only way to do it requires a command line then revert it. These days most basic things can be done very easily in linux without ever touching the command line so the only barrier to entry is that computers don't come pre-loaded with it.
  - emp_zealoth 10y ago
    >cumputer noun - a personal computer used just to browse porn!
snake_plissken 10y ago
MS also continually re-enables the update if you block/hide it in Windows Update. I've blocked it like 5 times in the past 5 months at my company's workstation only to have it magically re-appear on a Monday morning. Just leave me to my Windows 7 peace!
5ilv3r 10y ago
This bricked my sister in law's computer AND GUESS WHO GETS TO FIX IT. Microsoft messed up. Instead of losing a windows 7 user and gaining a windows 10 user, they lost a windows 7 user and gained a boots-to-blackscreen user.
83457 10y ago
Got hit by this yesterday on a computer I don't use frequently and a coworker quickly turned machine off to prevent upgrade and all was well. It is sad that they would stoop this low. I just don't understand it.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  >It is sad that they would stoop this low. I just don't understand it. There's nothing "sad" about it. If this increases their corporate profits, then it's the correct course of action. I'm only surprised they didn't resort to tactics like this earlier; they were much too nice with their customers before. They're doing a lot better now, by showing their customers who's boss. What's sad is that customers actually think they deserve to be treated nicely. I just don't understand that mentality. If you're willing to allow a vendor to abuse you, over and over and over again, and you absolutely refuse to ditch that vendor, then why shouldn't the vendor treat you poorly if they can make more money doing so?
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    They're doing a lot better now, by showing their customers who's boss. Microsoft might indeed be about to learn who's boss. Spoiler: Absent legal or regulatory shenanigans, in the long run it's going to be the people spending the money. If you really believe Microsoft are strong enough to coerce most or all of their entire market to move to Windows 10 when it's not in their interests, I invite you to look up the current market share of Windows 7 vs. Windows 10, and to consider that this is about 10 months into the 12 month free update period already.
    - serge2k 10y ago
      > I invite you to look up the current market share of Windows 7 vs. Windows 10 This type of thing is probably why they want to drag people kicking and screaming onto 10. Otherwise people refuse to get off a decade old OS.
      - 10y ago
ladzoppelin 10y ago
Windows 10 needs to be forced just like OSX,Chrome and Ios. Deal with it or use Ubuntu, which is actually very nice.
- MrMullen 10y ago
  Neither OSX or IOS force upgrade. Chrome is an application, so that is a Apples to Oranges comparison.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    iOS upgrades are forced in all but name. Apple can and do remove versions of apps that supporter older iOS versions from the App Store. If you want the latest version of an app, you can be forced in practice to update iOS as well, and with so many mobile apps depending on remote services, something as simple as a change in the protocol for communicating with some essential remote facility in an app can lead to an entire OS update. The even crazier thing is that they also don't let you downgrade either the OS or the apps if a new version is worse than what you had before.
  - exodust 10y ago
    iOS now forces point release updates as of version 9. Not sure about major versions, I guess we will see. I'm betting they will. To be clear, by "force" I mean the update is downloaded automatically in the background to your device regardless of whether you have system updates turned off. Then you are continually hounded with reminders to install that update, with no option to stop the reminders. It's actually worse than Windows because at least with Windows we can disable the notifications and prevent the update.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
codeonfire 10y ago
There needs to be a class action lawsuit. The people doing this at Microsoft are not that familiar with western legal systems or basic sensibilities or just don't care. A lawsuit will maybe wake them up.
- zxcvcxz 10y ago
  It's probably more profitable for them to get more people on 10 and deal with a law suit than to let people stay on the other versions.
  - Silhouette 10y ago
    Evidently the lawsuit needs a higher damages award. I thought the motivation for having punitive damages in a legal system was so that courts could make sure it was never cheaper to do the wrong thing and hope to ride out any resulting legal action.
    - talmand 10y ago
      Doesn't matter, in the end all members of the class action lawsuit will receive a coupon for a free copy of Windows 10 for their damages. The lawyers will be paid in cash.
      - Silhouette 10y ago
        If the cash that pays the lawyers is a significant fraction of Microsoft's annual revenues, that might still be considered a win.
- ascagnel_ 10y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if the Win10 user agreement includes provisions such that using Win10 counts as agreeing to the EULA, as well as a class-action waiver[0]. There, sadly, will be no class-action to wake them up, unless an individual user is willing to go out of their way. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc...
goldbrick 10y ago
Why are you acting as free tech support if you're going to be such a bitch about it?
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Family.
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    I'll upgrade my family members to Linux if they want. But if they need help fixing Windows, they're on their own. I'm not a Windows expert, nor do I have any wish to learn about it.
  - 5ilv3r 10y ago
    @Grishnakh I'm not a windows user. I just got instructions on how to fix it from the desktop support guy at work. I don't like leaving people in a rut.
  - goldbrick 10y ago
    My sister-in-law is a nurse. I don't expect her to give me free medical care; even less so if I knew she was such a complain-nik about it to her friends online.
- yequalsx 10y ago
  Your response is inappropriate and this type of response is not wanted on this site.
- dang 10y ago
  We've banned this account for trolling, detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11762872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11762872 and marked it off-topic.
CyberDildonics 10y ago
One solution that seems to not get much attention is setting the windows firewall to block outgoing connections by default. You then whitelist the couple of programs that actually do need internet access (it isn't many, mostly just web browsers). Then you don't have to worry about windows or any other program pulling a bait and switch on you.
- CyberDildonics 10y ago
  More downvotes without any explanations. I've literally been doing this for multiple years and it works great, I don't know why it ends up being such a controversial solution.
  - exodust 10y ago
    Because "mostly just web browsers" isn't correct for a typical PC with decent collection of good software. Many applications need outbound access and whitelisting all of them would be painful. I would never attempt that on my PC and agree with those who downvoted you! Not only that, but sometimes it's not obvious which .exe file needs the outbound access. Some programs use other modules to connect to remote servers for application update checks and other things. Besides, you want Windows security patches, so on many levels your idea tanks hard!
    - CyberDildonics 10y ago
      I have quite a bit of software on my computer and it really didn't turn out to be necessary to whitelist very many of them. It really isn't a huge deal. There are added benefits that something like visual studio tries to access the internet for things that aren't really a benefit to someone who doesn't want to give 'smiley face feedback' or log into their locally installed IDE for some reason.
sandworm101 10y ago
Does anyone have data on what percentage of devices fail the upgrade process? Surely Mircosoft does. They also probably have data on how many people then end up purchasing a new machine. Microsoft seems to me like car dealer who in their spare time pours sugar into the gas tanks of parked cars. They don't care how many people the inconvenience. If even one percent of them buy a new car then it was worth the sugar.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  They could easily know, by counting the machines they told to upgrade and counting the ones that came back from upgrade and subtracting one from the other. But you might be fired if you tried to implement the collection of that data.
SeanDav 10y ago
The underhanded and manipulative approach that Microsoft have taken with Windows 10 has put me off Microsoft completely. It is important to trust your OS and OS vendor and Microsoft have slipped up badly in this regard. Now they expect me to give them full update control with Windows 10 - never going to happen. Next OS is Linux.
CyberDildonics 10y ago
My plan for my next computer is to not run windows on the bare metal but run it in a VM as fast as possible. Does any know of a linux distribution that is geared towards this? I basically want to boot to linux then choose various virtual machine images to run.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Any recent desktop linux will have virtualbox available. You could also run something like proxmox.
- emp_zealoth 10y ago
  Look into what supports PCI passthrough That tech looks amazing (I didn't have the time to make it work though)
Fire-Dragon-DoL 10y ago
My win7 configuration uses programdata and users folder on D. This is not supportby windows 10, i tried the upgrade and everything broke, reverted through cloned hdd. I have no plan in upgrading, my pc will die before and at that point i'll format and reinstall (and never use users directory again), they still push me that upgrade, it's terrible. People says "always update your pc", but usually things get worse when you do
hendersoon 10y ago
I find it hard to believe that anyone not employed by Microsoft would take this position. But lets move past that and just say-- I strongly disagree with your stance.
- dang 10y ago
  > I find it hard to believe that anyone not employed by Microsoft would take this position. Insinuations of astroturfing and shillage without evidence are a breach of HN's civility rule and not allowed here. Someone holding an opposing view does not count as evidence. When there are genuine concerns about astroturfing, we look into them carefully and (in the case where we find something) ban the accounts involved. But casual accusation and insinuation is not ok. Extrapolated, it would wreck this place. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11764493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11764493 and marked it off-topic.
DrScump 10y ago
And even that assumes that Something doesn't Go Wrong: http://imgur.com/9WQcjyT http://imgur.com/9WQcjyT
lgp171188 10y ago
Imho, this looks like a deliberate ploy to get most Windows computers to upgrade to Windows 10 so that they can force the App Store model in order to get the 30% cut.

79 points by fredley 10y ago

I just re-activated that dialog (I had disabled it with registry setting changes) because I don't want to miss the free upgrade option but use it at the last moment. Anyway - I found that when I simply say "No" to the inevitable "Terms and conditions" license dialog question the upgrade stops even if you said "go ahead" in the previous step.

ericolo 10y ago
Wanted to comment precisely this. Yesterday my gf called me because she had W10 on her laptop, installed, and about to start all the process of adding the user and stuff (I think). I clicked "I do no accept" to the license, got a warning that then they needed to restore my previous version of windows, and 10 minutes later the laptop was working as before. Guess now I know why that happened.
- 0x0 10y ago
  Did the downgrade work perfectly? There's been a lot of reports of small things not working anymore, like scheduled tasks - https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/80e4f83d-1529-4405-b8e3-d1d636f8b71c/task-scheduler-is-broken-after-windows-10-downgrade?forum=win10itprogeneral https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/80e4f83d-1...

krapp 10y ago

The change occurred because the update is now labelled "recommended" and many people have their PCs configured to accept recommended updates for security reasons. Turn off automatic updating and never turn it back on, ever. At this point, the biggest threat to Windows machines seems to be Microsoft themselves. Manually update any Windows machines you run, unchecking the Windows 10 upgrade every single time. It will never stay unchecked, nor will it ever not be recommended. Until Microsoft decides to override that and literally force it on everyone, which I don't doubt they will do as soon as they feel they can afford the class action lawsuits that will result from the few stragglers remaining, there is no other way to avoid the upgrade, unless you actually want to hack the registry or something.

JoshTriplett 10y ago
> Turn off automatic updating and never turn it back on, ever. At this point, the biggest threat to Windows machines seems to be Microsoft themselves. And if you turn off automatic updates, you become the biggest threat to your machine's security. (As well as to many other people on the Internet, when your system becomes compromised and starts sending spam, DoS attacks, or other botnet activities.) Yes, some people don't like Windows 10. But Windows has moved to the "evergreen" software model, as have many other pieces of software (including browsers). If you don't like Windows 10, the answer isn't "run Windows 7 forever"; the answer is "stop running Windows, because you don't like where it's going (or has already gone)".
- cptskippy 10y ago
  Sadly there are a lot of people out there who will stick to 7 or XP for no particularly good reason and they'll suffer for it. I'm curious what will happen to Windows 10 users who can no longer update their systems. The anniversary update due out next month is said to require 4GB minimum on all systems, how many systems will be left in the lurch because of that and what happens to them? I have a couple Windows Tablets that won't be able to upgrade.
  - blibble 10y ago
    buy a new machine, and hey look, MS will get $100 for the OEM copy of Windows "free" upgrade, yeah right
- antisthenes 10y ago
  The answer is whatever works for the person running the machine. If I choose to run Windows 7 forever and only use internet services from a VM - that's my prerogative. > And if you turn off automatic updates, you become the biggest threat to your machine's security. The typical user is already the biggest threat to their machine's security, regardless of whether updates are turned off or on. There's no windows update that specifically protects users from even the most common threats if the user doesn't exercise due diligence.

Ambroos 10y ago

I get that Microsoft wants to get people to upgrade, but forcing it like this is just plain rude Reality is, there are still driver issues on older hardware (especially laptops) with Windows 10. Some of my friends get random hangs since upgrading. My grandma's sister had her laptop upgraded and can't find anything anymore. It's a huge download and a huge change in how your computer works. This is not something you should just force on your users by tricking them to install it. Nudges and prompts are fine by me. Pushing it as an opt-out thing you have to actively cancel is just awful.

cptskippy 10y ago
It's not just older hardware, I upgraded an 2015 HP Stream Mini to Windows 10 and it died during the install after it had wiped Windows 8 essentially bricking the computer.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mkohlmyr 10y ago
My girlfriend's laptop touchpad died upon update. After stopping her panic I had to enable using arrow keys for the cursor movement (getting to this menu without using said cursor was interesting..) and then roll back the "upgrade" using arrow keys.
- pyromine 10y ago
  Why was getting to the menu interesting, keyboard navigation in windows is a pretty well established paradigm, it may take marginally longer than you're used to but there are many people who primarily use their computer with the keyboard only.
  - pc86 10y ago
    Probably because you're telling someone who has only ever used a mouse or trackpad to get to an interior settings screen without using a mouse or trackpad. Just because "many people" do something doesn't make it easy or intuitive to someone who has never done it.

rossng 10y ago

I have already spent several hours this week on the university student IT helpdesk fixing laptops broken by this Windows 10 update. Every single person said they hadn't chosen to update - clearly it was a result of this popup. Most of the failures were broken drivers that prevented Windows from even booting. It particularly annoys me that Windows 10 tries to install itself on completely incompatible hardware. A nasty dark pattern.

arca_vorago 10y ago

I'm going to share the best way I have found to kill any particular thing in windows you don't like, including GWX: (this is not my full script, just a section, so you will have to modify it) taskkill /IM GWX* takeown /r /d N /f c:\windows\system32\gwx icacls c:\windows\system32\gwx\. /c /t /deny everyone:F icacls c:\windows\system32\gwx /c /t /deny everyone:F reg add HKLM\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx /v DisableGwx /t REG_DWORD /d 1 edit: one thing I ran into that caused me to use this hackish script is that, at least in the early GWX days, windows updates were re-enabling the GWX and update registry keys. So a few tuesdays later and GWX is back and asking to upgrade again.

sfont 10y ago
This is my registry changes that has worked every time. Even when the install is set to kick off with the next reboot. [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade] "ReservationsAllowed"=dword:00000000 "KickoffDownload"=dword:00000000 "KickoffSource"=dword:00000000 "AllowOSUpgrade"=dword:00000000 "Refresh"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade\State] "OSUpgradeState"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate] "DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx] "DisableGwx"=dword:00000001
- zxcvcxz 10y ago
  On Linux we just close the update window.
- tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
  interesting, I knew about the last two, but not the OSUpgrade ones, did you find those are needed as well?
  - sfont 10y ago
    I copied the first part from a domain joined PC before a later update caused them to receive the upgrade prompt as well. It's kind of belt and suspenders so it doesn't harm but may not actually be needed.

oarsinsync 10y ago

Having done a fresh install of Win7 recently, I can confirm that only installing important updates, not treating recommended updates the same, and being highly selective of which optional updates (i.e. drivers only) prevents any of the Windows 10 upgrade stuff from being installed. This doesn't help anyone who has previously done things differently (which was generally accepted as the best practice), but if you're setting up any new hosts, the above may work out as well for you as it has for me.

degenerate 10y ago
For those of you (or people you know) that still keep getting nagged about Win10, this freeware works great at killing all the system tray, balloon, and popup notifications: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/

Grue3 10y ago

>Clicking the red cross on the right hand corner of the pop-up box now activates the upgrade instead of closing the box. This is just laughably evil. You can just imagine the Microsoft CEO sitting on his throne and chuckling like a supervillain.

mobiuscog 10y ago
It's also completely wrong. The red X simply closes the notification - nothing more. Like pretty much every notification ever. The dialog is telling the user something will happen rather than asking them to make a choice. Unfortunately, users largely don't pay any attention to what they're doing...
- hendersoon 10y ago
  While that is true, you're missing that this is a change from how the upgrade dialogue worked for the past several months. In the past, it popped up a window asking when you want to schedule the upgrade, and the only way to get rid of it without agreeing to upgrade was to close the window. The difference is that now the upgrade is immediately scheduled without the user's consent. If you close the window, following your past behavior, it upgrades anyway. To stop the upgrade you need to click on an 8 point blue link. This didn't just start today. Everybody running windows 7 or 8 today has REPEATEDLY declined Windows 10 upgrade notifications for months on-end. These consumers made a choice not to upgrade, and Microsoft tricked them using standard malware tactics! That's why this is nothing less than a _shameful_ act by Microsoft.
  - mobiuscog 10y ago
    Nope. In the past, you received notifications that you could upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. This time, you received a notification to tell you it was going to upgrade. You clicked the Red X to dismiss the notification. They're exactly the same process. The difference is that if you didn't actually read the notification, you didn't know what it was telling you. Anybody that really didn't want Windows 10 would have used one of the many ways, either through group policy or 3rd party apps, to prevent even being asked. Sure, many people don't read dialogs or notifications, but that's not Microsoft's fault - it's user's that can't be bothered to actually understand what they're doing.

0x0 10y ago

I know several people who tried to be super diligent in opting out of windows 10 only to wake up to a win10 install on their PCs. They all ended up buying Macbooks the next day. Forced windows 10 upgrades seem to be the best advertisement OS X could ever get.

exodust 10y ago
Sounds fishy. I get that sneaky OS updating is unwanted, but it can be avoided and there's an easy 3 click process to roll back if Windows 10 is installed. Don't forget that Apple now enforce mandatory iOS updates, with no option to opt out or disable the annoying reminders. Even if you have automatic system updates turned off, the point release iOS updates are downloaded without your permission in the background when the phone or iPad is charging. These updates might be between 80 - 300 MB. The notification dialog boxes then begin their attack, every day with two options "install now / remind me later". This is actually worse than Windows, since on Windows we at least have the option to disable the scheduled update and the reminder notifications. Not so on iOS as of version 9.

cjensen 10y ago

I got tired of being asked, so I used Never10 [1] which is freeware from a reputable developer [2]. Never10 can also undo the decision and let you upgrade if you change your mind. [1] https://www.grc.com/never10.htm https://www.grc.com/never10.htm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gibson_(computer_programmer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gibson_(computer_program...

zapu 10y ago
Also critique about [2]: 1) http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/7 http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/7 regarding "raw socket panic" 2) http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.gnhlug/22505 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.gnhlu... regarding questionable SpinRite application to fix hard drive errors
- cjensen 10y ago
  Yep, that's what the cite is for. Eccentric and sometimes "crazy uncle", but has a reputation and isn't trying to murder your computer on purpose.
gnu8 10y ago
Gibson isn't a reputable programmer, he's a noted Infoseek charlatan [1]. The proper tool for preventing Windows 10 upgrades is Ultimate Outsider's GWX control panel [2], not Gibson's poor me-too gimmick. [1] http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/ http://attrition.org/errata/charlatan/steve_gibson/ [2] http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/

pmx 10y ago

Seeing them this desperate to get windows 10 on to people's computers for FREE really has me worries about their motivations. I know it's loaded with tracking and spy features, are they selling that collected data and want as many people contributing to it as possible? Whether they want to or not? If I could afford it I'd get a mac and be done with this nonsense. Used to use ubuntu but I need photoshop :(

Zardoz84 10y ago
I just begin to shift again to my kUbuntu install. I try to use Windows 10 only for playing games that aren't yet on Steam for Linux.
- kjax 10y ago
  I found myself in the same boat, but eventually just dropped Windows altogether. Once Linux desktops can better work with and calibrate ICC profiles, I'll really have no urge to go back.
  - zxcvcxz 10y ago
    The GNOME 3 desktop works pretty well with ICC profiles for me.
dspillett 10y ago
A chunk of the telemetry recorded by Windows 10 has been back-ported to 7 and 8 in updates since anyway so that isn't a reason not to upgrade (though if it is a concern to you it is a reason not to use 7 or 8 as much as it is a reason not to use 10). I have two machines that will likely never see Windows 10: a laptop on which it ran like a one legged arthritic dog (8 wasn't terribly fast on there, 10 was just impossible, it currently runs Debian as a test-bed for a few things) and a tablet that had significant driver issues that I don't particularly expect to see resolved (so it'll be sticking at 8 as I don't have time to upgrade and roll back again if it fails, my time is precious!). The "but it is free" thing amuses me somewhat. Does anyone else remember hearing the "Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing" mantra from various Microsoft supporting camps?

zxcvcxz 10y ago

Update broke my parents friends wifi and of course they call me and ask for help, and of course they don't own an ethernet cable, and of course all he does is use the web browser to look at porn.

Fuxy 10y ago
If that is really the only thing they use I would just install Linux mint on it in the long run it's probably better for them. It's surprisingly easy to install mallware and viruses on a windows computer cumputer these days see download.com for a good example. Even I've done it a few times by accident luckily it was in a VM so I just scrapped it. There's basically no difference if all you do is browse the internet and if they run into issued doing something and the only way to do it requires a command line then revert it. These days most basic things can be done very easily in linux without ever touching the command line so the only barrier to entry is that computers don't come pre-loaded with it.
- emp_zealoth 10y ago
  >cumputer noun - a personal computer used just to browse porn!

snake_plissken 10y ago

MS also continually re-enables the update if you block/hide it in Windows Update. I've blocked it like 5 times in the past 5 months at my company's workstation only to have it magically re-appear on a Monday morning. Just leave me to my Windows 7 peace!

5ilv3r 10y ago

This bricked my sister in law's computer AND GUESS WHO GETS TO FIX IT. Microsoft messed up. Instead of losing a windows 7 user and gaining a windows 10 user, they lost a windows 7 user and gained a boots-to-blackscreen user.

83457 10y ago

Got hit by this yesterday on a computer I don't use frequently and a coworker quickly turned machine off to prevent upgrade and all was well. It is sad that they would stoop this low. I just don't understand it.

Grishnakh 10y ago
>It is sad that they would stoop this low. I just don't understand it. There's nothing "sad" about it. If this increases their corporate profits, then it's the correct course of action. I'm only surprised they didn't resort to tactics like this earlier; they were much too nice with their customers before. They're doing a lot better now, by showing their customers who's boss. What's sad is that customers actually think they deserve to be treated nicely. I just don't understand that mentality. If you're willing to allow a vendor to abuse you, over and over and over again, and you absolutely refuse to ditch that vendor, then why shouldn't the vendor treat you poorly if they can make more money doing so?
- Silhouette 10y ago
  They're doing a lot better now, by showing their customers who's boss. Microsoft might indeed be about to learn who's boss. Spoiler: Absent legal or regulatory shenanigans, in the long run it's going to be the people spending the money. If you really believe Microsoft are strong enough to coerce most or all of their entire market to move to Windows 10 when it's not in their interests, I invite you to look up the current market share of Windows 7 vs. Windows 10, and to consider that this is about 10 months into the 12 month free update period already.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    > I invite you to look up the current market share of Windows 7 vs. Windows 10 This type of thing is probably why they want to drag people kicking and screaming onto 10. Otherwise people refuse to get off a decade old OS.
    - 10y ago

ladzoppelin 10y ago

Windows 10 needs to be forced just like OSX,Chrome and Ios. Deal with it or use Ubuntu, which is actually very nice.

MrMullen 10y ago
Neither OSX or IOS force upgrade. Chrome is an application, so that is a Apples to Oranges comparison.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  iOS upgrades are forced in all but name. Apple can and do remove versions of apps that supporter older iOS versions from the App Store. If you want the latest version of an app, you can be forced in practice to update iOS as well, and with so many mobile apps depending on remote services, something as simple as a change in the protocol for communicating with some essential remote facility in an app can lead to an entire OS update. The even crazier thing is that they also don't let you downgrade either the OS or the apps if a new version is worse than what you had before.
- exodust 10y ago
  iOS now forces point release updates as of version 9. Not sure about major versions, I guess we will see. I'm betting they will. To be clear, by "force" I mean the update is downloaded automatically in the background to your device regardless of whether you have system updates turned off. Then you are continually hounded with reminders to install that update, with no option to stop the reminders. It's actually worse than Windows because at least with Windows we can disable the notifications and prevent the update.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

codeonfire 10y ago

There needs to be a class action lawsuit. The people doing this at Microsoft are not that familiar with western legal systems or basic sensibilities or just don't care. A lawsuit will maybe wake them up.

zxcvcxz 10y ago
It's probably more profitable for them to get more people on 10 and deal with a law suit than to let people stay on the other versions.
- Silhouette 10y ago
  Evidently the lawsuit needs a higher damages award. I thought the motivation for having punitive damages in a legal system was so that courts could make sure it was never cheaper to do the wrong thing and hope to ride out any resulting legal action.
  - talmand 10y ago
    Doesn't matter, in the end all members of the class action lawsuit will receive a coupon for a free copy of Windows 10 for their damages. The lawyers will be paid in cash.
    - Silhouette 10y ago
      If the cash that pays the lawyers is a significant fraction of Microsoft's annual revenues, that might still be considered a win.
ascagnel_ 10y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if the Win10 user agreement includes provisions such that using Win10 counts as agreeing to the EULA, as well as a class-action waiver[0]. There, sadly, will be no class-action to wake them up, unless an individual user is willing to go out of their way. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepcion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_LLC_v._Concepc...

goldbrick 10y ago

Why are you acting as free tech support if you're going to be such a bitch about it?

5ilv3r 10y ago
Family.
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  I'll upgrade my family members to Linux if they want. But if they need help fixing Windows, they're on their own. I'm not a Windows expert, nor do I have any wish to learn about it.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  @Grishnakh I'm not a windows user. I just got instructions on how to fix it from the desktop support guy at work. I don't like leaving people in a rut.
- goldbrick 10y ago
  My sister-in-law is a nurse. I don't expect her to give me free medical care; even less so if I knew she was such a complain-nik about it to her friends online.
yequalsx 10y ago
Your response is inappropriate and this type of response is not wanted on this site.
dang 10y ago
We've banned this account for trolling, detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11762872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11762872 and marked it off-topic.

CyberDildonics 10y ago

One solution that seems to not get much attention is setting the windows firewall to block outgoing connections by default. You then whitelist the couple of programs that actually do need internet access (it isn't many, mostly just web browsers). Then you don't have to worry about windows or any other program pulling a bait and switch on you.

CyberDildonics 10y ago
More downvotes without any explanations. I've literally been doing this for multiple years and it works great, I don't know why it ends up being such a controversial solution.
- exodust 10y ago
  Because "mostly just web browsers" isn't correct for a typical PC with decent collection of good software. Many applications need outbound access and whitelisting all of them would be painful. I would never attempt that on my PC and agree with those who downvoted you! Not only that, but sometimes it's not obvious which .exe file needs the outbound access. Some programs use other modules to connect to remote servers for application update checks and other things. Besides, you want Windows security patches, so on many levels your idea tanks hard!
  - CyberDildonics 10y ago
    I have quite a bit of software on my computer and it really didn't turn out to be necessary to whitelist very many of them. It really isn't a huge deal. There are added benefits that something like visual studio tries to access the internet for things that aren't really a benefit to someone who doesn't want to give 'smiley face feedback' or log into their locally installed IDE for some reason.

sandworm101 10y ago

Does anyone have data on what percentage of devices fail the upgrade process? Surely Mircosoft does. They also probably have data on how many people then end up purchasing a new machine. Microsoft seems to me like car dealer who in their spare time pours sugar into the gas tanks of parked cars. They don't care how many people the inconvenience. If even one percent of them buy a new car then it was worth the sugar.

EdHominem 10y ago
They could easily know, by counting the machines they told to upgrade and counting the ones that came back from upgrade and subtracting one from the other. But you might be fired if you tried to implement the collection of that data.

SeanDav 10y ago

The underhanded and manipulative approach that Microsoft have taken with Windows 10 has put me off Microsoft completely. It is important to trust your OS and OS vendor and Microsoft have slipped up badly in this regard. Now they expect me to give them full update control with Windows 10 - never going to happen. Next OS is Linux.

CyberDildonics 10y ago

My plan for my next computer is to not run windows on the bare metal but run it in a VM as fast as possible. Does any know of a linux distribution that is geared towards this? I basically want to boot to linux then choose various virtual machine images to run.

5ilv3r 10y ago
Any recent desktop linux will have virtualbox available. You could also run something like proxmox.
emp_zealoth 10y ago
Look into what supports PCI passthrough That tech looks amazing (I didn't have the time to make it work though)

Fire-Dragon-DoL 10y ago

My win7 configuration uses programdata and users folder on D. This is not supportby windows 10, i tried the upgrade and everything broke, reverted through cloned hdd. I have no plan in upgrading, my pc will die before and at that point i'll format and reinstall (and never use users directory again), they still push me that upgrade, it's terrible. People says "always update your pc", but usually things get worse when you do

hendersoon 10y ago

I find it hard to believe that anyone not employed by Microsoft would take this position. But lets move past that and just say-- I strongly disagree with your stance.

dang 10y ago
> I find it hard to believe that anyone not employed by Microsoft would take this position. Insinuations of astroturfing and shillage without evidence are a breach of HN's civility rule and not allowed here. Someone holding an opposing view does not count as evidence. When there are genuine concerns about astroturfing, we look into them carefully and (in the case where we find something) ban the accounts involved. But casual accusation and insinuation is not ok. Extrapolated, it would wreck this place. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11764493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11764493 and marked it off-topic.

DrScump 10y ago

And even that assumes that Something doesn't Go Wrong: http://imgur.com/9WQcjyT http://imgur.com/9WQcjyT

lgp171188 10y ago

Imho, this looks like a deliberate ploy to get most Windows computers to upgrade to Windows 10 so that they can force the App Store model in order to get the 30% cut.