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> Everyone in the USA has the right to bear arms, and a lot of them do. Result: huge murder rate. The rate of murders committed by folks legally carrying guns

by zeveb 10y ago

> Everyone in the USA has the right to bear arms, and a lot of them do. Result: huge murder rate. The rate of murders committed by folks legally carrying guns is low; the rate of murders committed by Americans using weapons other than firearms is high. It's almost as though Americans in general are more violent than people in many other parts of the world.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago
murders committed per legally owned firearm vs murders committed by illegally owned firearm, and probably the same for legal/illegal owners is another stat you should take into account...
marcus_holmes 10y ago
I had to re-read that twice before I got the meaning... I was thinking "hang on, so everyone carries guns but knife murders are up? what?" but what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... There's this really straightforward clear correlation between number of guns and amount of gun violence. Everyone else in the world gets this. Americans don't for some reason. I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. Y'all seem perfectly intelligent and reasonable otherwise.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... No, OP complains that in the U.S. 'everyone' can carry firearms legally (not actually true: felons, wife-beaters, citizens of New Jersey & similar folks are prohibited from carrying firearms) and thus we have a high murder rate. I pointed out that the issue is not the legal right, since the folks committing the murders are not, for the most part, legally armed. > I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. There's this really straightforward clear correlation between arms-bearing and liberty (viz.: an unarmed man is fundamentally not free). Americans seem to get this; many other folks don't for some reason. I'm always curious why not.
  - marcus_holmes 10y ago
    because I'm happy to give up my freedom to carry a gun in return for the knowledge that other people are similarly unarmed and therefore unable to shoot me. It's what we do in a polite society; restrict our freedoms to respect the rights of others. I don't play music loudly on public transport for the same reason.
    - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
      How about the knowledge that other people know that you are unarmed, and therefore are free to attack you with fists or knives without fear of you shooting them? This is not idle rhetoric. Britain has much lower gun violence statistics than the US, but higher total violence statistics.
blisterpeanuts 10y ago
The murder rates, weapons used, and ethnicities of murderers and victims are well documented; see the FBI's own statistics (bjs.gov) for the details. In summary, most law abiding gun owners in the U.S. don't commit homicide. Among whites, guns are most likely to be used for suicide. Among blacks, guns are most likely to be used for homicide, and most of their victims are also black. In fact out of about 11,000 gun homicides per year, over 6000 are black-on-black shootings, mostly males 16-39, mostly urban ghetto gang members. Thus, less than 1% of the U.S. population commits over half the gun homicides (Hispanics have the next largest share). If you control for the unfortunate murder rates in the ghetto areas, actually the per capita gun violence in the U.S. is almost the same as Canada and western Europe, maybe 1% higher but certainly not warranting the kind of stereotyping that inevitably accompanies any discussion about gun crime in America. Except for a few neighborhoods, most American cities today are as safe as, or actually safer than those of Europe. You can argue with some validity that guns are too easy for gangs to obtain, but that's really separate from what we're talking about here which is lawful carry.

by zeveb 10y ago

dsfyu404ed 10y ago

murders committed per legally owned firearm vs murders committed by illegally owned firearm, and probably the same for legal/illegal owners is another stat you should take into account...

marcus_holmes 10y ago

I had to re-read that twice before I got the meaning... I was thinking "hang on, so everyone carries guns but knife murders are up? what?" but what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... There's this really straightforward clear correlation between number of guns and amount of gun violence. Everyone else in the world gets this. Americans don't for some reason. I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. Y'all seem perfectly intelligent and reasonable otherwise.

zeveb 10y ago
> what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... No, OP complains that in the U.S. 'everyone' can carry firearms legally (not actually true: felons, wife-beaters, citizens of New Jersey & similar folks are prohibited from carrying firearms) and thus we have a high murder rate. I pointed out that the issue is not the legal right, since the folks committing the murders are not, for the most part, legally armed. > I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. There's this really straightforward clear correlation between arms-bearing and liberty (viz.: an unarmed man is fundamentally not free). Americans seem to get this; many other folks don't for some reason. I'm always curious why not.
- marcus_holmes 10y ago
  because I'm happy to give up my freedom to carry a gun in return for the knowledge that other people are similarly unarmed and therefore unable to shoot me. It's what we do in a polite society; restrict our freedoms to respect the rights of others. I don't play music loudly on public transport for the same reason.
  - AnimalMuppet 10y ago
    How about the knowledge that other people know that you are unarmed, and therefore are free to attack you with fists or knives without fear of you shooting them? This is not idle rhetoric. Britain has much lower gun violence statistics than the US, but higher total violence statistics.

blisterpeanuts 10y ago

The murder rates, weapons used, and ethnicities of murderers and victims are well documented; see the FBI's own statistics (bjs.gov) for the details. In summary, most law abiding gun owners in the U.S. don't commit homicide. Among whites, guns are most likely to be used for suicide. Among blacks, guns are most likely to be used for homicide, and most of their victims are also black. In fact out of about 11,000 gun homicides per year, over 6000 are black-on-black shootings, mostly males 16-39, mostly urban ghetto gang members. Thus, less than 1% of the U.S. population commits over half the gun homicides (Hispanics have the next largest share). If you control for the unfortunate murder rates in the ghetto areas, actually the per capita gun violence in the U.S. is almost the same as Canada and western Europe, maybe 1% higher but certainly not warranting the kind of stereotyping that inevitably accompanies any discussion about gun crime in America. Except for a few neighborhoods, most American cities today are as safe as, or actually safer than those of Europe. You can argue with some validity that guns are too easy for gangs to obtain, but that's really separate from what we're talking about here which is lawful carry.