23 ms·

Maybe I completely misunderstood you then... were you writing against the argument that uniting Europe was "Originally a nazi idea"?

ThomPete 10y ago
I was writing against the argument of trying to use Nazism in the argument we have here. Which someone tried his way with. Of course it's true that the Nazis wanted something very close to the EU. It's been used by many opponents of the EU as an argument against it. But of course it's a retarded way to argue because the current EU is not founded on nazism or nazist ideas. My main thesis was that most political analysts are wrong in their attempt to make the increasing popularity of the right wing parties a question of racism, fascism etc. Many of the parties originally gained their support with some of these voters but they have since then mostly developed into being simply National Conservatives. And so their voters are not so much voting as racist but as skeptics when it comes to immigration especially from countries that are culturally far from their own. They fear that a continued influx will destroy the culture and their nation. They just want to be left a lone so to speak. Thats a very different sentiment than the nazis looking out for a specific race to exterminate.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  There is one nagging thread remaining: the theme that ones' own culture is elevated over all others, and deserving of first-class treatment. As an American, with neighbors and friends from all over the globe making my culture a mixing pot of music, food, work ethic, church and leisure, I am always puzzled by the European idea that somehow their culture will be destroyed by letting new neighbors live in their city. A century and a half after being settled our local cities all have strong cultural identities with their ancestral pioneering families. From city-wide events, to cultural centers and musical venues, to celebrations of food traditions. I can sample all this because I live among folks from all over the world. Without threatening my own history.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Thats because Europe have a very different system for supporting immigration. In the US it's up to you to basically take care of yourself from day one. in the EU you benefit from the social welfaresystem from day one. In Europe you are made a patient so to speak, in the US you are made a provider. Europe doesn't have millions of people living their under the radar participating in the economy. Instead most immigrants and refugees gets paid by the system. Further more the US is a big big big continent. Europe isn't yet it has more people than the US. So this is not about being afraid this is about the rate, the quantity and the cultural change. I read somewhere that this different means that the US get the 80% most self-sufficient immigrants while EU gets the 80% least self-sufficient immigrants which make sense when you think about the very different demand the US puts on your for self-sustaining your life.
  - danmaz74 10y ago
    > the theme that ones' own culture is elevated over all others, and deserving of first-class treatment Isn't this one of the themes that make Trump such a successful candidate in the USA right now? There are people who have that have that attitude in Europe and the US (and, I guess, everywhere). Unfortunately, that attitude is on the rise both here and there, AFAIK.
- m_fayer 10y ago
  I get that you're not a native speaker so you're probably not doing this intentionally, but casually throwing around the word "retarded" can sound offensive and juvenile, and will certainly discourage people from engaging with your arguments in good faith.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    I am well aware of the meaning of the word. In the original argument you made and which I was answering were trying to make connection between people who vote for right wing parties and nazism. I am saying that both are retarded argument. Both the one I am responding to which you made and the one I am making. I am only making it to show how absurd kind of argument it is that you are making. Call it what you want.
- danmaz74 10y ago
  > Of course it's true that the Nazis wanted something very close to the EU Even that isn't remotely true. The Nazis wanted an empire based on military conquest, with the imposition of the will of the "superior Arian race" on the other "inferior races"; the territories where those inferior races lived should have been colonized by Germans (lebensraum) and the original inhabitants should have become slaves, be relocated elsewhere, or just be exterminated. Can you tell me which part of this is close to the EU?
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    There is nothing in nazism that is about unifying the EU, just as there is nothing in right-wing skepticism that is about a superior race. Thats the point. Just like the fact that the nazis did have a dream of a unified europe also politically doesn't have anything to do with the EU we see today, the fact that some right wing party was started by someone with nazi sympathy does not mean thats why people vote for them today. I don't know how to make the argument much clearer to you.

ThomPete 10y ago

I was writing against the argument of trying to use Nazism in the argument we have here. Which someone tried his way with. Of course it's true that the Nazis wanted something very close to the EU. It's been used by many opponents of the EU as an argument against it. But of course it's a retarded way to argue because the current EU is not founded on nazism or nazist ideas. My main thesis was that most political analysts are wrong in their attempt to make the increasing popularity of the right wing parties a question of racism, fascism etc. Many of the parties originally gained their support with some of these voters but they have since then mostly developed into being simply National Conservatives. And so their voters are not so much voting as racist but as skeptics when it comes to immigration especially from countries that are culturally far from their own. They fear that a continued influx will destroy the culture and their nation. They just want to be left a lone so to speak. Thats a very different sentiment than the nazis looking out for a specific race to exterminate.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
There is one nagging thread remaining: the theme that ones' own culture is elevated over all others, and deserving of first-class treatment. As an American, with neighbors and friends from all over the globe making my culture a mixing pot of music, food, work ethic, church and leisure, I am always puzzled by the European idea that somehow their culture will be destroyed by letting new neighbors live in their city. A century and a half after being settled our local cities all have strong cultural identities with their ancestral pioneering families. From city-wide events, to cultural centers and musical venues, to celebrations of food traditions. I can sample all this because I live among folks from all over the world. Without threatening my own history.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Thats because Europe have a very different system for supporting immigration. In the US it's up to you to basically take care of yourself from day one. in the EU you benefit from the social welfaresystem from day one. In Europe you are made a patient so to speak, in the US you are made a provider. Europe doesn't have millions of people living their under the radar participating in the economy. Instead most immigrants and refugees gets paid by the system. Further more the US is a big big big continent. Europe isn't yet it has more people than the US. So this is not about being afraid this is about the rate, the quantity and the cultural change. I read somewhere that this different means that the US get the 80% most self-sufficient immigrants while EU gets the 80% least self-sufficient immigrants which make sense when you think about the very different demand the US puts on your for self-sustaining your life.
- danmaz74 10y ago
  > the theme that ones' own culture is elevated over all others, and deserving of first-class treatment Isn't this one of the themes that make Trump such a successful candidate in the USA right now? There are people who have that have that attitude in Europe and the US (and, I guess, everywhere). Unfortunately, that attitude is on the rise both here and there, AFAIK.
m_fayer 10y ago
I get that you're not a native speaker so you're probably not doing this intentionally, but casually throwing around the word "retarded" can sound offensive and juvenile, and will certainly discourage people from engaging with your arguments in good faith.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  I am well aware of the meaning of the word. In the original argument you made and which I was answering were trying to make connection between people who vote for right wing parties and nazism. I am saying that both are retarded argument. Both the one I am responding to which you made and the one I am making. I am only making it to show how absurd kind of argument it is that you are making. Call it what you want.
danmaz74 10y ago
> Of course it's true that the Nazis wanted something very close to the EU Even that isn't remotely true. The Nazis wanted an empire based on military conquest, with the imposition of the will of the "superior Arian race" on the other "inferior races"; the territories where those inferior races lived should have been colonized by Germans (lebensraum) and the original inhabitants should have become slaves, be relocated elsewhere, or just be exterminated. Can you tell me which part of this is close to the EU?
- ThomPete 10y ago
  There is nothing in nazism that is about unifying the EU, just as there is nothing in right-wing skepticism that is about a superior race. Thats the point. Just like the fact that the nazis did have a dream of a unified europe also politically doesn't have anything to do with the EU we see today, the fact that some right wing party was started by someone with nazi sympathy does not mean thats why people vote for them today. I don't know how to make the argument much clearer to you.