3 ms·

I've got family in China. They're just regular people trying to make in the world, same as me and most everyone else reading this. I'm no fan of the government

I've got family in China. They're just regular people trying to make in the world, same as me and most everyone else reading this. I'm no fan of the government there, but that's no reason to not work with the people who have little choice but to live under it.

kpil 10y ago
True. I had this totally naïve idea that EU could introduce higher tariffs and trade restrictions using a score based on political freedom, social security, etc, and the goal would be to tax but not remove too much of the cost incentive for trading. Part (or most, or even all) of the money should then be used to fund education and healthcare back in the country the money came from, while avoiding too much political campaigning. Maybe it's totally unrealistic, but I can't really see any other way of protecting the rights that we have fought for. Interestingly, this would be virtually impossible in Russia as they more or less have legislated against "foreign agents" to minimise the opportunity for the west to meddle with their affairs. It could work in China, and most likely in India and countries with large groups of poor people. It would also be virtually unacceptable for USA, unless the social component was removed. As it is now, EU would have to increase the tariffs to compensate for the poor social security in US...
sho 10y ago
I want to upvote this a hundred times. I've got family in China too and for fuck's sake they are just normal people. Sure, their government is a control freak, but tell me, how much do you like your government? At least theirs manages to build things! And who's about to elect Trump president? The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech, just like they can't handle guns. They should be able to but they can't. It would be nice if they could but they can't. Unless and until we embrace actual eugenics, and can weed out that crazy segment who always ruins everything, we can't have nice things. But we can't face that possibility, so we either get censorship and gun control or the good ol' USA massacre of the week and Trump. I am not against democracy, but I think the current western liberalism, where it is perfectly OK to spread outright lies and counter-social messages on mass media in the name of "free speech", is doomed. I've mentioned Trump twice and for good reason. I think Americans underestimate just how bad their political situation looks from the outside. Not only the gridlock in congress, but the United States, supposedly and self-appointedly the shining light of democracy for the entire world, is about to elect this idiotic, unqualified populist blowhard. It is really hard to make any kind of defense of that. The USA is currently and enthusiastically proving every bad thing the CPC said about it, free speech, and democracy in general, absolutely right.
- tremon 10y ago
  The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech I will have to disagree here. In my view, freedoms require training to wield them correctly. Part of that training is social (and hence requires good role models), and part is educational (and requires a good education system). When either of those fail, you can expect problems (extremism in the former, and Trump in the latter case). But that doesn't mean the freedom itself is harmful or even unattainable, it just requires constant maintenance. I think the current western liberalism, where it is perfectly OK to spread outright lies and counter-social messages on mass media in the name of "free speech", is doomed. I think the current Chinese propaganda is equally doomed.
  - hadcoffee 10y ago
    Since you mentioned about "training to wield them correctly". This is the state of China that majority people that are actively using online social networks are those who lack of control and responsibility. The Greatest Firewall blocks those who are less educated and does not know how to use technologies for the good, block those who can be manipulated easily by other politicians. A lot of techies in China are able to get through this, in fact, there are special routers for setting up the network linked with Google/Youtube/Facebook or you name it, it's privately giving consent by the government, they sometime installed in large firms to ensure that smarter people can use information for the good. Now, again think about the gun scenario comparing to the US. From national point of view, blocking or censorship is not only about freedom. They are protecting citizen's privacy and information for the nation. If you are the president, of course you do not want majority of the citizen's information held by a US company that is very good at machine learning; you also want to think about how to protect or help to shape the technology culture slowly without being disrupted by foreign countries. Mostly of the time that people talking about things went wrong, but once you are in that person's shoes with the limitations/stresses he/she's facing, you probably start to see the reasons. And of course the wsj or any US media is going to troll it as an outsider. It's also under US's national interests. At least that the news in China never troll about other countries. I rarely seen any, most of the time they are thinking about what's good in other countries (creativity, tech, startup). Now, try run a startup with about 100 people and maintain a good culture there - scale it 100 Billion times and think about maintaining it - it's not an easy job. It's nice to observe it, I won't complaint about it.

kpil 10y ago

True. I had this totally naïve idea that EU could introduce higher tariffs and trade restrictions using a score based on political freedom, social security, etc, and the goal would be to tax but not remove too much of the cost incentive for trading. Part (or most, or even all) of the money should then be used to fund education and healthcare back in the country the money came from, while avoiding too much political campaigning. Maybe it's totally unrealistic, but I can't really see any other way of protecting the rights that we have fought for. Interestingly, this would be virtually impossible in Russia as they more or less have legislated against "foreign agents" to minimise the opportunity for the west to meddle with their affairs. It could work in China, and most likely in India and countries with large groups of poor people. It would also be virtually unacceptable for USA, unless the social component was removed. As it is now, EU would have to increase the tariffs to compensate for the poor social security in US...

sho 10y ago

I want to upvote this a hundred times. I've got family in China too and for fuck's sake they are just normal people. Sure, their government is a control freak, but tell me, how much do you like your government? At least theirs manages to build things! And who's about to elect Trump president? The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech, just like they can't handle guns. They should be able to but they can't. It would be nice if they could but they can't. Unless and until we embrace actual eugenics, and can weed out that crazy segment who always ruins everything, we can't have nice things. But we can't face that possibility, so we either get censorship and gun control or the good ol' USA massacre of the week and Trump. I am not against democracy, but I think the current western liberalism, where it is perfectly OK to spread outright lies and counter-social messages on mass media in the name of "free speech", is doomed. I've mentioned Trump twice and for good reason. I think Americans underestimate just how bad their political situation looks from the outside. Not only the gridlock in congress, but the United States, supposedly and self-appointedly the shining light of democracy for the entire world, is about to elect this idiotic, unqualified populist blowhard. It is really hard to make any kind of defense of that. The USA is currently and enthusiastically proving every bad thing the CPC said about it, free speech, and democracy in general, absolutely right.

tremon 10y ago
The scary truth is that humans can't handle proper free speech I will have to disagree here. In my view, freedoms require training to wield them correctly. Part of that training is social (and hence requires good role models), and part is educational (and requires a good education system). When either of those fail, you can expect problems (extremism in the former, and Trump in the latter case). But that doesn't mean the freedom itself is harmful or even unattainable, it just requires constant maintenance. I think the current western liberalism, where it is perfectly OK to spread outright lies and counter-social messages on mass media in the name of "free speech", is doomed. I think the current Chinese propaganda is equally doomed.
- hadcoffee 10y ago
  Since you mentioned about "training to wield them correctly". This is the state of China that majority people that are actively using online social networks are those who lack of control and responsibility. The Greatest Firewall blocks those who are less educated and does not know how to use technologies for the good, block those who can be manipulated easily by other politicians. A lot of techies in China are able to get through this, in fact, there are special routers for setting up the network linked with Google/Youtube/Facebook or you name it, it's privately giving consent by the government, they sometime installed in large firms to ensure that smarter people can use information for the good. Now, again think about the gun scenario comparing to the US. From national point of view, blocking or censorship is not only about freedom. They are protecting citizen's privacy and information for the nation. If you are the president, of course you do not want majority of the citizen's information held by a US company that is very good at machine learning; you also want to think about how to protect or help to shape the technology culture slowly without being disrupted by foreign countries. Mostly of the time that people talking about things went wrong, but once you are in that person's shoes with the limitations/stresses he/she's facing, you probably start to see the reasons. And of course the wsj or any US media is going to troll it as an outsider. It's also under US's national interests. At least that the news in China never troll about other countries. I rarely seen any, most of the time they are thinking about what's good in other countries (creativity, tech, startup). Now, try run a startup with about 100 people and maintain a good culture there - scale it 100 Billion times and think about maintaining it - it's not an easy job. It's nice to observe it, I won't complaint about it.