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They are absolutely valid concerns, but when people talk about the problems of globalisation or multi-culturalism, they usually follow it up with talk about bui

by adwf 10y ago

They are absolutely valid concerns, but when people talk about the problems of globalisation or multi-culturalism, they usually follow it up with talk about building walls and pulling up drawbridges. Take the climate change induced migration example; having millions of starving desperate people on the other side of a wall (literal or metaphorical), is not going to be a pretty situation. It's the classic philosophy problem: If your child is starving to death, would you steal a loaf of bread? Or would you watch them die? By building walls, you're forcing that decision on millions of refugees. Would you blame anyone for their actions in such a situation? By pushing people away we're only kicking the can down the road, it will only ever get worse. Whereas if we show compassion and show them how great our society is, maybe they'll realise that it's our way of life that gives us these good things. It's hard to call someone the devil when they're being nice to you. When was the last time we were nice to anyone in the middle east outside Israel?

vlehto 10y ago
I think it's fundamentally trust issue and identity issue bundled together. There is 2000km between Germany and Syria. People in Syria are different group than desendants of Syrians in Germany. German govermnent is different than most individual native germans. Nobody has to abide by any rules or agreements, it just happens that currently some rules make sense for large majority. For now. Someone being nice to someone else doesn't exactly guarantee anything to anybody else. I think the walls are completely meaningless in every sense. They don't make anybody terrorist, refugee or safe. Compassion might just as well show them that we are foolish. Violence might just show them that we have loot to protect. It's hard to call someone devil when they are nice to you, but it's still relatively easy to be asshole yourself. I advocate pretty much just two things. Dropping less bombs to middle east and cutting social security form refugees. That should fight the root causes of current immigration in short/medium term.
- adwf 10y ago
  Yes, those are very good points. Another is that the current refugee crisis is as much a crisis about quantity as about culture. We've had plenty of situations in the past where significant migration has occurred, Indians to Britain, Turkish to Germany, Irish/Italians/etc. to America. But they've all managed to eventually integrate well because no-one gave up on them. The major difference as I see it today is that it's a question of quantity. How do you successfully integrate a million Syrians? Old fashioned slow integration (watch and wait) worked because people for the large part, genuinely wanted to be in their new country. With the refugees that's not necessarily the case.
  - vlehto 10y ago
    Yes it's very much quantity problem too. Europe is bunch of nation states. Which means that language and race/ethnicity are founding parameters of the most fundamental and powerfull social construct on the continent. If you get 1% of immigrants, they are just guests. But 20% would be very problematic to the national identity, because they don't fit in to the matrix of ethnicity and language. But you can't treat them as non significant "other" anymore because they are everywhere all the time. So it's also a speed/integration problem. Most Brits don't mind "Normans" anymore. Many Estonians have beef with the very significant Russian minority that migrated after WWII. Of course current immigration is not anykind of actual problem. It's just that people are afraid of escalation and politicians seem incapable of actually doing anything.

by adwf 10y ago

vlehto 10y ago

I think it's fundamentally trust issue and identity issue bundled together. There is 2000km between Germany and Syria. People in Syria are different group than desendants of Syrians in Germany. German govermnent is different than most individual native germans. Nobody has to abide by any rules or agreements, it just happens that currently some rules make sense for large majority. For now. Someone being nice to someone else doesn't exactly guarantee anything to anybody else. I think the walls are completely meaningless in every sense. They don't make anybody terrorist, refugee or safe. Compassion might just as well show them that we are foolish. Violence might just show them that we have loot to protect. It's hard to call someone devil when they are nice to you, but it's still relatively easy to be asshole yourself. I advocate pretty much just two things. Dropping less bombs to middle east and cutting social security form refugees. That should fight the root causes of current immigration in short/medium term.

adwf 10y ago
Yes, those are very good points. Another is that the current refugee crisis is as much a crisis about quantity as about culture. We've had plenty of situations in the past where significant migration has occurred, Indians to Britain, Turkish to Germany, Irish/Italians/etc. to America. But they've all managed to eventually integrate well because no-one gave up on them. The major difference as I see it today is that it's a question of quantity. How do you successfully integrate a million Syrians? Old fashioned slow integration (watch and wait) worked because people for the large part, genuinely wanted to be in their new country. With the refugees that's not necessarily the case.
- vlehto 10y ago
  Yes it's very much quantity problem too. Europe is bunch of nation states. Which means that language and race/ethnicity are founding parameters of the most fundamental and powerfull social construct on the continent. If you get 1% of immigrants, they are just guests. But 20% would be very problematic to the national identity, because they don't fit in to the matrix of ethnicity and language. But you can't treat them as non significant "other" anymore because they are everywhere all the time. So it's also a speed/integration problem. Most Brits don't mind "Normans" anymore. Many Estonians have beef with the very significant Russian minority that migrated after WWII. Of course current immigration is not anykind of actual problem. It's just that people are afraid of escalation and politicians seem incapable of actually doing anything.