4 ms·

The unified Europe was originally a nazi idea. Can we please move the intellectual level up a bit?

pluma 10y ago
The European Union was pretty much created to prevent Germany from starting another war (or more generally: to maintain peace in Europe). The nazis wanted to "unify" Europe only in the sense that they wanted to annex all European nations and exert unlimited control over them. They weren't interested in creating a European identity, they merely wanted Germans to rule all of Europe (but not make Europeans Germans -- after all Europe was full of untermenschen they wanted nothing to do with). In other words "unifying Europe" under the doctrine of Lebensraum basically meant conquering more territory for Germans to settle (and enslaving, deporting or exterminating the local population as necessary). Unless you're saying the EU wants to literally do that, the comparison is hyperbolic at best (and defamatory at worst).
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Yes you are completely right. It wasn't meant as a serious argument. It was a reaction just as silly as then one it was answering.
  - pluma 10y ago
    You say that, but I've seen this argument presented as serious criticism of the EU before, so Poe's law aside I guess it's worth refuting.
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      Yes I have seen that to. Just as I have seen serious arguments trying to turn current voters for right-wing companies into nazis. Thats what I was reacting to by putting just as ridicules a claim out there.
danmaz74 10y ago
"Originally a nazi idea"? ROFL. Just to pick a previous example, what about Napoleon?
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Sure Napoleon too. And there were other parties before the parties we talk about here proposing the same things. The point of of course is that if that is was nazist is the argument, completely ignoring the current context and reality then it's not really worthy of anything but equally retarded attempts to morally paint something s you don't have to actually make a case.
  - danmaz74 10y ago
    Maybe I completely misunderstood you then... were you writing against the argument that uniting Europe was "Originally a nazi idea"?
    - ThomPete 10y ago
      I was writing against the argument of trying to use Nazism in the argument we have here. Which someone tried his way with. Of course it's true that the Nazis wanted something very close to the EU. It's been used by many opponents of the EU as an argument against it. But of course it's a retarded way to argue because the current EU is not founded on nazism or nazist ideas. My main thesis was that most political analysts are wrong in their attempt to make the increasing popularity of the right wing parties a question of racism, fascism etc. Many of the parties originally gained their support with some of these voters but they have since then mostly developed into being simply National Conservatives. And so their voters are not so much voting as racist but as skeptics when it comes to immigration especially from countries that are culturally far from their own. They fear that a continued influx will destroy the culture and their nation. They just want to be left a lone so to speak. Thats a very different sentiment than the nazis looking out for a specific race to exterminate.
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
vixen99 10y ago
The technique of assuming a point prior to actually establishing it, is a cheap one. It's also transparent.
- ThomPete 10y ago
  Please read the context it was made in. I am not assuming anything. I am simply providing an argument just as silly as the one I am responding to show how useless that line of argumentation is.

pluma 10y ago

The European Union was pretty much created to prevent Germany from starting another war (or more generally: to maintain peace in Europe). The nazis wanted to "unify" Europe only in the sense that they wanted to annex all European nations and exert unlimited control over them. They weren't interested in creating a European identity, they merely wanted Germans to rule all of Europe (but not make Europeans Germans -- after all Europe was full of untermenschen they wanted nothing to do with). In other words "unifying Europe" under the doctrine of Lebensraum basically meant conquering more territory for Germans to settle (and enslaving, deporting or exterminating the local population as necessary). Unless you're saying the EU wants to literally do that, the comparison is hyperbolic at best (and defamatory at worst).

ThomPete 10y ago
Yes you are completely right. It wasn't meant as a serious argument. It was a reaction just as silly as then one it was answering.
- pluma 10y ago
  You say that, but I've seen this argument presented as serious criticism of the EU before, so Poe's law aside I guess it's worth refuting.
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    Yes I have seen that to. Just as I have seen serious arguments trying to turn current voters for right-wing companies into nazis. Thats what I was reacting to by putting just as ridicules a claim out there.

danmaz74 10y ago

"Originally a nazi idea"? ROFL. Just to pick a previous example, what about Napoleon?

ThomPete 10y ago
Sure Napoleon too. And there were other parties before the parties we talk about here proposing the same things. The point of of course is that if that is was nazist is the argument, completely ignoring the current context and reality then it's not really worthy of anything but equally retarded attempts to morally paint something s you don't have to actually make a case.
- danmaz74 10y ago
  Maybe I completely misunderstood you then... were you writing against the argument that uniting Europe was "Originally a nazi idea"?
  - ThomPete 10y ago
    I was writing against the argument of trying to use Nazism in the argument we have here. Which someone tried his way with. Of course it's true that the Nazis wanted something very close to the EU. It's been used by many opponents of the EU as an argument against it. But of course it's a retarded way to argue because the current EU is not founded on nazism or nazist ideas. My main thesis was that most political analysts are wrong in their attempt to make the increasing popularity of the right wing parties a question of racism, fascism etc. Many of the parties originally gained their support with some of these voters but they have since then mostly developed into being simply National Conservatives. And so their voters are not so much voting as racist but as skeptics when it comes to immigration especially from countries that are culturally far from their own. They fear that a continued influx will destroy the culture and their nation. They just want to be left a lone so to speak. Thats a very different sentiment than the nazis looking out for a specific race to exterminate.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago

vixen99 10y ago

The technique of assuming a point prior to actually establishing it, is a cheap one. It's also transparent.

ThomPete 10y ago
Please read the context it was made in. I am not assuming anything. I am simply providing an argument just as silly as the one I am responding to show how useless that line of argumentation is.