6 ms·

They boast of all the knives and guns they've confiscated. I wonder though, whether we'd not be more secure if everyone carried guns on board. A hijacker wouldn

They boast of all the knives and guns they've confiscated. I wonder though, whether we'd not be more secure if everyone carried guns on board. A hijacker wouldn't stand a chance. Of course, there might also be some bloody air rage incidents as well. But at the same time, maybe people would act more civil if everyone around them is packing, or at least the flight attendants....

jimcsharp 10y ago
Maybe this is the movies I've watched, but isn't firing a gun structurally dangerous to the airplane?
- deelowe 10y ago
  Considering one plane flew and successfully landed with half the top missing, I think movies might exaggerate the risk a bit. Shocking, I know...
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    The plane you're referencing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 And no, folks, "half the top missing" isn't hyperbole.
- frostburg 10y ago
  Not structurally, but you might hit something important.
  - diabeetusman 10y ago
    I can't imagine there's anything "important" enough that would bring down the whole plane with one shot. I mean, sure you might kill a person or two, but pretty much every system is double- or triple-redundant, even the pilot(s).
  - dajohnson89 10y ago
    What about the issue of depressurizing the cabin?
    - zyxley 10y ago
      That's not a structural issue.
- headShrinker 10y ago
  Not to get too chatty but, myth busters had an episode on plane cabin decompression. The gun didn't have much effect. Granted, the plane wasn't moving https://youtu.be/Fi1_1l7M8FA https://youtu.be/Fi1_1l7M8FA Edit: better link
chris_wot 10y ago
Oh, a shoot out by multiple panicked passengers on a packed, pressurised plane. Sure, real safe. Not to mention it only takes one dimwit to not store his gun safely and accidentally fire it and someone (or everyone) dies. I've never understood this argument that if everyone has guns then everyone is safer.
- forgotpwtomain 10y ago
  > Oh, a shoot out by multiple panicked passengers on a packed, pressurised plane. Sure, real safeYou You actually used to be able to travel with firearms on planes (edit: as carry-on). And the above never occurred afaik.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    You still can, in checked luggage.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    So if it never occurred, then what was the point of carrying the guns?
    - blisterpeanuts 10y ago
      Same reason as carrying your other personal possessions--to get them from point A to point B.
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        Except the OP posited we'd all be safer if everyone carried guns on a plane. If it was to merely transport them and they aren't used, I'm just unclear how it makes anyone more or less safer?
Kristine1975 10y ago
>But at the same time, maybe people would act more civil if everyone around them is packing I think it's more likely someone would start shooting the passenger next to them for "taking too much space."
- aft42 10y ago
  Or being a scary looking academic type: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11648758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11648758 - http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-airlines-man-removed-flight-arabic http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-air...
DanielBMarkham 10y ago
Yes, the obvious takeaway from all those knives and guns? For decades folks have been bringing all that stuff on airplanes and there never was a 9-11. Never was an inflight shooting as far as I know. By reporting this stuff they're actually making the case of how totally useless they are -- and how pointless and misguided the "find the weapon" school of security theater is.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  It seems it is merely incredibly rare. This guy shot the pilots: http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/burke-david.htm http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/burke-david.htm This guy stabbed one pilot to death before he was subdued: http://murderpedia.org/male.N/n/nishizawa-yuji.htm http://murderpedia.org/male.N/n/nishizawa-yuji.htm The stabbing occurred after he reported the security flaw he used to get the knife on board the plane. Previously checked baggage could be picked up after passing through security for another flight. He was able to simply take the knife out of a bag he had checked on a previous flight.
  - DanielBMarkham 10y ago
    There was also a guy that planted a bomb in order to kill his wife. I'm guessing the number of weapons on U.S. planes that get by security run into the thousands every year. And before all the checks, probably the tens or hundreds of thousands per year. Looks extremely rare. I mean really, really extremely rare. Handful of examples and roughly 9 million U.S. airline flights last year[1] It'd be interesting to run some comparative statistics. I bet the odds show that you're safer with a plane full of gun owners, having their guns in holsters and loaded, than you are spending the same amount of time in each of those gun owners' homes. [1] http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/acts http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/acts
marcus_holmes 10y ago
I think we can work this out. Everyone in the USA has the right to bear arms, and a lot of them do. Result: huge murder rate. Everyone in the rest of the world does not have the right to carry guns around the place. Result: much smaller murder rate. I think we can infer that if everyone could take guns on planes then we'd have more people shooting guns on planes and hence more death on planes. Going from that to stopping people from carrying pocket knives on planes is the bit that I think is suspect logic.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > Everyone in the USA has the right to bear arms, and a lot of them do. Result: huge murder rate. The rate of murders committed by folks legally carrying guns is low; the rate of murders committed by Americans using weapons other than firearms is high. It's almost as though Americans in general are more violent than people in many other parts of the world.
  - dsfyu404ed 10y ago
    murders committed per legally owned firearm vs murders committed by illegally owned firearm, and probably the same for legal/illegal owners is another stat you should take into account...
  - marcus_holmes 10y ago
    I had to re-read that twice before I got the meaning... I was thinking "hang on, so everyone carries guns but knife murders are up? what?" but what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... There's this really straightforward clear correlation between number of guns and amount of gun violence. Everyone else in the world gets this. Americans don't for some reason. I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. Y'all seem perfectly intelligent and reasonable otherwise.
    - zeveb 10y ago
      > what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... No, OP complains that in the U.S. 'everyone' can carry firearms legally (not actually true: felons, wife-beaters, citizens of New Jersey & similar folks are prohibited from carrying firearms) and thus we have a high murder rate. I pointed out that the issue is not the legal right, since the folks committing the murders are not, for the most part, legally armed. > I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. There's this really straightforward clear correlation between arms-bearing and liberty (viz.: an unarmed man is fundamentally not free). Americans seem to get this; many other folks don't for some reason. I'm always curious why not.
GVIrish 10y ago
I'm all for gun rights but allowing firearms on airplanes would be a disaster. Just to start with, if you allow firearms a group of hijackers could ostensibly open fire on the cockpit and kill the pilots before any other passenger could neutralize them. You'd be depending on more passengers having guns than hijackers, which would be completely down to luck. Secondly, you'd have a bunch of incidents of idiots pulling their gun when they shouldn't have, which would lead to avoidable injuries, deaths, panic, etc. TSA should screen for firearms with metal detectors and xray machines, its just all of the removing the shoes, body scans, laptop scans, banning liquids, and understaffing that are a problem.

jimcsharp 10y ago

Maybe this is the movies I've watched, but isn't firing a gun structurally dangerous to the airplane?

deelowe 10y ago
Considering one plane flew and successfully landed with half the top missing, I think movies might exaggerate the risk a bit. Shocking, I know...
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  The plane you're referencing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 And no, folks, "half the top missing" isn't hyperbole.
frostburg 10y ago
Not structurally, but you might hit something important.
- diabeetusman 10y ago
  I can't imagine there's anything "important" enough that would bring down the whole plane with one shot. I mean, sure you might kill a person or two, but pretty much every system is double- or triple-redundant, even the pilot(s).
- dajohnson89 10y ago
  What about the issue of depressurizing the cabin?
  - zyxley 10y ago
    That's not a structural issue.
headShrinker 10y ago
Not to get too chatty but, myth busters had an episode on plane cabin decompression. The gun didn't have much effect. Granted, the plane wasn't moving https://youtu.be/Fi1_1l7M8FA https://youtu.be/Fi1_1l7M8FA Edit: better link

chris_wot 10y ago

Oh, a shoot out by multiple panicked passengers on a packed, pressurised plane. Sure, real safe. Not to mention it only takes one dimwit to not store his gun safely and accidentally fire it and someone (or everyone) dies. I've never understood this argument that if everyone has guns then everyone is safer.

forgotpwtomain 10y ago
> Oh, a shoot out by multiple panicked passengers on a packed, pressurised plane. Sure, real safeYou You actually used to be able to travel with firearms on planes (edit: as carry-on). And the above never occurred afaik.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  You still can, in checked luggage.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  So if it never occurred, then what was the point of carrying the guns?
  - blisterpeanuts 10y ago
    Same reason as carrying your other personal possessions--to get them from point A to point B.
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      Except the OP posited we'd all be safer if everyone carried guns on a plane. If it was to merely transport them and they aren't used, I'm just unclear how it makes anyone more or less safer?

Kristine1975 10y ago

>But at the same time, maybe people would act more civil if everyone around them is packing I think it's more likely someone would start shooting the passenger next to them for "taking too much space."

aft42 10y ago
Or being a scary looking academic type: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11648758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11648758 - http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-airlines-man-removed-flight-arabic http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/16/southwest-air...

DanielBMarkham 10y ago

Yes, the obvious takeaway from all those knives and guns? For decades folks have been bringing all that stuff on airplanes and there never was a 9-11. Never was an inflight shooting as far as I know. By reporting this stuff they're actually making the case of how totally useless they are -- and how pointless and misguided the "find the weapon" school of security theater is.

maxerickson 10y ago
It seems it is merely incredibly rare. This guy shot the pilots: http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/burke-david.htm http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/burke-david.htm This guy stabbed one pilot to death before he was subdued: http://murderpedia.org/male.N/n/nishizawa-yuji.htm http://murderpedia.org/male.N/n/nishizawa-yuji.htm The stabbing occurred after he reported the security flaw he used to get the knife on board the plane. Previously checked baggage could be picked up after passing through security for another flight. He was able to simply take the knife out of a bag he had checked on a previous flight.
- DanielBMarkham 10y ago
  There was also a guy that planted a bomb in order to kill his wife. I'm guessing the number of weapons on U.S. planes that get by security run into the thousands every year. And before all the checks, probably the tens or hundreds of thousands per year. Looks extremely rare. I mean really, really extremely rare. Handful of examples and roughly 9 million U.S. airline flights last year[1] It'd be interesting to run some comparative statistics. I bet the odds show that you're safer with a plane full of gun owners, having their guns in holsters and loaded, than you are spending the same amount of time in each of those gun owners' homes. [1] http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/acts http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/acts

marcus_holmes 10y ago

I think we can work this out. Everyone in the USA has the right to bear arms, and a lot of them do. Result: huge murder rate. Everyone in the rest of the world does not have the right to carry guns around the place. Result: much smaller murder rate. I think we can infer that if everyone could take guns on planes then we'd have more people shooting guns on planes and hence more death on planes. Going from that to stopping people from carrying pocket knives on planes is the bit that I think is suspect logic.

zeveb 10y ago
> Everyone in the USA has the right to bear arms, and a lot of them do. Result: huge murder rate. The rate of murders committed by folks legally carrying guns is low; the rate of murders committed by Americans using weapons other than firearms is high. It's almost as though Americans in general are more violent than people in many other parts of the world.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  murders committed per legally owned firearm vs murders committed by illegally owned firearm, and probably the same for legal/illegal owners is another stat you should take into account...
- marcus_holmes 10y ago
  I had to re-read that twice before I got the meaning... I was thinking "hang on, so everyone carries guns but knife murders are up? what?" but what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... There's this really straightforward clear correlation between number of guns and amount of gun violence. Everyone else in the world gets this. Americans don't for some reason. I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. Y'all seem perfectly intelligent and reasonable otherwise.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > what I think you're saying is that law-abiding people don't shoot people. Well, duh... No, OP complains that in the U.S. 'everyone' can carry firearms legally (not actually true: felons, wife-beaters, citizens of New Jersey & similar folks are prohibited from carrying firearms) and thus we have a high murder rate. I pointed out that the issue is not the legal right, since the folks committing the murders are not, for the most part, legally armed. > I'm always curious why Americans don't get this. There's this really straightforward clear correlation between arms-bearing and liberty (viz.: an unarmed man is fundamentally not free). Americans seem to get this; many other folks don't for some reason. I'm always curious why not.

GVIrish 10y ago

I'm all for gun rights but allowing firearms on airplanes would be a disaster. Just to start with, if you allow firearms a group of hijackers could ostensibly open fire on the cockpit and kill the pilots before any other passenger could neutralize them. You'd be depending on more passengers having guns than hijackers, which would be completely down to luck. Secondly, you'd have a bunch of incidents of idiots pulling their gun when they shouldn't have, which would lead to avoidable injuries, deaths, panic, etc. TSA should screen for firearms with metal detectors and xray machines, its just all of the removing the shoes, body scans, laptop scans, banning liquids, and understaffing that are a problem.